Gas water heater ground

[Billy_Bob]

If they're not connected to the electrical system, or bonded to anything that is... why would they need to be grounded?...

...How come you need to bond anything on a water supply, and you guys are arguing about shower valves & suchlike... doesn't the water in the pipes, already bond the whole system?...

Water does not conduct electricity...
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=water...c9c32d20fe6232

Then pipes go everywhere and a hot electric wire touching any pipe will energize the whole works. Say a homeowner pulls an extension cord through an attic and the wire gets stuck on a sharp object. Then the homeowner pulls harder, the wire strips, then comes free, but then the wire comes to rest on a water pipe. All the water pipes could become energized. Grandma goes to brush her teeth in the morning, turns on the water, and is electrocuted!

Here are actual cases...

Plumber was electrocuted while installing a section of water pipe...
http://www.safetysolutions.net.au/ar...on-water-pipes

Many a plumber has died by cutting through old galvanized pipes...
http://www.electronics-tutorials.com...th-dangers.htm

"a soldier received a strong electric shock when his clothed arm brushed a water pipe"...
(See Acrobat Reader page 13 - Document page 3)
http://www.dodig.mil/inspections/IE/...4-09)_full.pdf

Review of Electrocution Deaths in Iraq: Part II...
http://www.dodig.mil/inspections/IPO...%2009)_web.pdf

[jwelectric]

Water does not conduct electricity...
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=water...c9c32d20fe6232

Then pipes go everywhere and a hot electric wire touching any pipe will energize the whole works. Say a homeowner pulls an extension cord through an attic and the wire gets stuck on a sharp object. Then the homeowner pulls harder, the wire strips, then comes free, but then the wire comes to rest on a water pipe. All the water pipes could become energized. Grandma goes to brush her teeth in the morning, turns on the water, and is electrocuted!

Here are actual cases...

Plumber was electrocuted while installing a section of water pipe...
http://www.safetysolutions.net.au/ar...on-water-pipes

Many a plumber has died by cutting through old galvanized pipes...
http://www.electronics-tutorials.com...th-dangers.htm

"a soldier received a strong electric shock when his clothed arm brushed a water pipe"...
(See Acrobat Reader page 13 - Document page 3)
http://www.dodig.mil/inspections/IE/...4-09)_full.pdf

Review of Electrocution Deaths in Iraq: Part II...
http://www.dodig.mil/inspections/IPO...%2009)_web.pdf

If the metal water pipe had not been bonded then there would not have been a complete path back to the transformer and the plumber would not have been hurt. This is a good case of why not to bond.
Remember there must be a complete path before current can flow.

The deaths in Iraq are due to the lack of earthing of generators and would in no way apply to this discussion. They are getting hurt due to NEV or neutral to earth voltages. This is mostly due to the difference in the way the different countries manufacture their equipment not due to a connection or the lack of a connection to a water pipe. Most of the water pipes installed on the bases in Iraq are nonmetallic.

Treated water such as water supplied from a utility will most definitely carry current. The more chlorine that is added to the water the better it conducts.

[Billy_Bob]

I found the answer to all the above by an expert on this subject!

He is Mark C. Ode and is staff engineering associate at Underwriters Laboratories Inc., in Research Triangle Park, N.C.

Following is what Mr. Ode had to say...

Bonding the Hot-Water Piping System

"250.104(A) requires all water-piping systems to be bonded back to the service, and hot or cold water lines are not specifically mentioned, both hot and cold water lines must be bonded and connected back to the building service."

Full article here...
http://www.homebuyeradvocates.com/PD...pe_bonding.pdf

[jwelectric]

I found the answer to all the above by an expert on this subject!

He is Mark C. Ode and is staff engineering associate at Underwriters Laboratories Inc., in Research Triangle Park, N.C.

Following is what Mr. Ode had to say...

Bonding the Hot-Water Piping System

"250.104(A) requires all water-piping systems to be bonded back to the service, and hot or cold water lines are not specifically mentioned, both hot and cold water lines must be bonded and connected back to the building service."

Full article here...
http://www.homebuyeradvocates.com/PD...pe_bonding.pdf

So now please tell me what part of Mark's paper is adopted into the NEC.
Just as with Soars and the NEC Handbook it is nothing more than what the author's opinion on the matter.
In the field of inspection the inspector must state what section of the NEC or the adopted code that the installer is in violation of. Please quote the code section that requires this bond.

Also look at the date on that paper, it was two code cycles ago.

[codeone]

And I am curious as to whether or not the Contractor Licencing Board for North Carolina has any stipulations as to how many DWI's a person can have before they pull their license? Does anyone have an idea? Some states tie the two together but not many.

NOW Jar546 THIS IS A CHEAP SHOT.

People loose respect over low blows like this!

You two are getting no where with this kind if talk.
You should stop this kind of banter trying to discredit each other and stick to the issues at hand and agree to disagree.

[jar546]

OK, I will agree to disagree.

I simply asked a question and did not imply a thing. We have lots of contractors in PA that have to get a background check with our new contractor registration law and many who cannot get a State registration because of their past history. I was only curious about NC since the two of you are so heavily involved in writing code in NC.

How was I suppose to know the guy had skeletons in his closet. He must have assumed I knew something.

I apologize. Sorry my friend.

[jwelectric]

OK, I will agree to disagree.

I simply asked a question and did not imply a thing. We have lots of contractors in PA that have to get a background check with our new contractor registration law and many who cannot get a State registration because of their past history. I was only curious about NC since the two of you are so heavily involved in writing code in NC.

How was I suppose to know the guy had skeletons in his closet. He must have assumed I knew something.

I apologize. Sorry my friend.

In the state of North Carolina a traffic charge even DWI is not grounds to revoke or refuse a person an electrical contractor’s license. A felony will most certainly cause a person to lose their right to contract electrical in this state.

Most people here on this forum also know that any individual can do a criminal background check on any other person as long as they know their name. I have posted more than enough information in this thread for that to happen. For this question to enter this type of discussion it could have had but one objective.
Your apology is accepted.

Now if we can lay all of this to the side and let it go I would love to continue on with this discussion and see if maybe you can teach me something.

Soars on Grounding in Chapter Eight states that all metal installed in a building must be bonded including such items as hot and cold water pipes, sewer piping, gas piping, gutters and metal air ducts.
If we are going to use Soars on Grounding as a reference to back out statements shouldn’t we be just as concerned with down spouts and metal air ducts as we are the hot and cold water bond?

If one is going to use the statements found in Soars shouldn’t the inspector also require that the down spouts and metal air ducts be bonded along with the hot and cold water pipes?
If Soars thinks that the down spouts and metal air ducts and metal sewer pipes needs bonding wouldn’t someone quoting part of their comments also quote the entire comment and think it just as important as any one part?

I am not disputing what is printed in Soars on Grounding or what is printed in the commentary of the NEC Handbook. What I am asking for is what code section of the NEC or the code amendments of your jurisdiction you are using to require the hot and cold metal water pipe to be made electrically continuous or be bonded.

According to the Administrative Laws of the State of North Carolina in order for a code enforcement official to reject an installation that code enforcement official must give the code section that is in violation. To the best of my knowledge this is true nation wide where there is a qualification board that issues certificates to code enforcement officials.
I do know that it is one of the requirements of the International Code Council as outlined in their administrative codes.

I ask for a simple statement quoted form the NEC or a link to the amendments that you use as a certified code enforcement official to enforce making something that a plumber has full authority over to be electrically continuous or that a bonding jumper be installed across a water heater.
Would you please be so kind as do this one simple thing for this poor tired and pathetic old man?

[mtmurphy]

I may be off but I have a bonding question since the county inspector just zinged me. I am changing a service panel on an older home, built prior to 1945. It's a 100 amp panel. The building inspector is requiring me to attach a wire to bond the cold water entrance to the heater to the copper gas line at the water heater in addition to attaching a ground to the service panel and water inlet service of the house and the ground rod. There is no black pipe only copper to the propane tank. When the utility company serviceman reestablished electric service I was told that was not normally done. Is it normal to connect a ground on a gas heater to the inlet water line and cross it to the gas line? Thanks