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Thread: Gas water heater ground

  1. #16

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    I'll go with what the inspector said above!

  2. #17
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billy_Bob View Post
    I'll go with what the inspector said above!
    Which inspector the NEC inspector or the home inspector.
    What I have done is quoted the NEC which is what all installers and inspectors MUST follow not a bunch of jibberish from those who don't understand current flow or even grounding for that matter.

    You have the choice to go with whom ever you choose but just because you go with some post does not make you or them right now does it?

    Personally I perfer to go with the word as it is printed in the Code as it is the only correct way to go.

  3. #18

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    250.104A

    We have enforced that for years. There is often NO continuity between the cold and hot water pipes therefore the system is not bonded if there is no continuity.

    For years this has been enforced by others and myself. It is simply common sense. If there is no continuity between the hot and cold piping due to the type of water heater installed, especially with a lack of a mixing valve then in order to bond the metal water piping system, you must provide a jumper between the hot and the cold.

    I think you will find yourself out in left field on this one. Having been an inspector for years, and IAEI and NFPA member and having access to panel members who are responsible for changes in the code, I have been able to verify the intent of issues like this.

    Some times you just have to admit that you are wrong and eat a piece of humble pie. I am not always correct and I learn something new every single day. The more that I learn, the more I realize just how much I don't know. This issue was resolved years ago and is something that all of us are fully aware of.


    Now you are aware of it and can learn from it. Eat the humble pie. I have already and will eat more soon. Just not on this issue.
    http://www.inspectpa.com/forum/forum.php
    My answers are based mostly on the ICC codes. Advice given is my personal opinion and every person performing work should acquire a permit from his/her jurisdiction and get the work inspected. My opinions are not directions to follow for DIYs or professionals

  4. #19
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jar546 View Post
    250.104A

    We have enforced that for years. There is often NO continuity between the cold and hot water pipes therefore the system is not bonded if there is no continuity.

    For years this has been enforced by others and myself. It is simply common sense. If there is no continuity between the hot and cold piping due to the type of water heater installed, especially with a lack of a mixing valve then in order to bond the metal water piping system, you must provide a jumper between the hot and the cold.

    I think you will find yourself out in left field on this one. Having been an inspector for years, and IAEI and NFPA member and having access to panel members who are responsible for changes in the code, I have been able to verify the intent of issues like this.

    Some times you just have to admit that you are wrong and eat a piece of humble pie. I am not always correct and I learn something new every single day. The more that I learn, the more I realize just how much I don't know. This issue was resolved years ago and is something that all of us are fully aware of.


    Now you are aware of it and can learn from it. Eat the humble pie. I have already and will eat more soon. Just not on this issue.
    Having been an inspector and electrical inspector instructor certified by the state of NC for years a and having been directly involved with the members of the IAEI and being the coauthor of the Instructorís Manual for Electrical Inspectors for the state of North Carolina I donít think that I have to admit anything because there is no requirement to make a metal water electrically continuous and hasnít been since the 1984 edition of the NEC.

    Just because you and your comrades in arms has been enforcing something means nothing more than you and your comrades in arms are not enforcing the letter of the NEC. Once again I ask you for clear statements quoted from the NEC that requires me to bond the potable water system twice or to make it electrically continuous. I am not asking you for what you think is common sense but clear verbiage from the NEC that requires this silly installation.

    5-235 Log #1834 NEC-P05 Final Action: Reject
    (250.104(A)(1))
    __________________________________________________ __________
    Submitter: Mark T. Rochon, Mark J. Rochon Master Electrician
    Recommendation: Revise as follows:
    General Combination metal water piping system(s) separated by nonmetallic water piping system(s) where may become energized installed in or attached to a building or structure shall be bonded to the service equipment enclosure, the grounded conductor at the service, the grounding electrode conductor where of sufficient size, or the one or more grounding electrodes used.
    Substantiation: Nonmetallic water piping systems are being inserted between our metal water piping system and todayís code is not recognizing these changes.
    Panel Meeting Action: Reject
    Panel Statement: The conditions indicated in the substantiation are already covered by 250.104(B) where there is not a complete metallic water piping system
    Number Eligible to Vote: 15
    Ballot Results: Affirmative: 15
    __________________________________________________ __________
    5-236 Log #2432 NEC-P05 Final Action: Reject
    (250.104(A)(1))
    __________________________________________________ __________
    Submitter: Robert P. McGann, City of Cambridge
    Recommendation: Revise text to read as follows:
    Metal water piping system(s) that is likely to be energized , installed in or attached to a building or structure shall be bonded.
    Substantiation: With much expanded use of plastic water piping system(s) isolating section of metal piping systems. This type of installation leaves contractors and inspectors what is required to be bonded.
    Panel Meeting Action: Reject
    Panel Statement: The requirements of 250.104(A) apply to complete metallic water piping systems. Where there is no complete metallic water piping system, then the requirements of 250.104(B) would apply for those portions of isolated metal water piping system likely to become energized.
    Number Eligible to Vote: 15
    Ballot Results: Affirmative: 15


    As can be seen in these two proposals Code Making Panel 5 makes the statement very clear that continuity of a metal water pipe is not important.
    I personally know several members of CMP 5 and have broke bread with them on many occasions. I have worked side by side with a couple of these real smart men.

    Tomorrow I will spend all day fulfilling some of the responsibility I have being a member of second committee down on this page.
    Pay close attention to some of the names on this education committee.


    You can keep enforcing something that was removed from the codes 25 years ago if you like and the people in your area allows you to do so
    but here in the great state of North Carolina we have a real good education program where we insure that our inspectors only enforce the code as it is written and not what they think makes common sense.

    Edited to add:

    Here is where all this bull crap of bonding the hot and cold came from. In this code cycle the green screw of a receptacle could be attached to a metal water pipe to ensure there was a fault path back to the source in order to operate the overcurrent device.
    The CMP realized that the plumbing codes would allow a nonmetallic repair to the metal water pipes so this requirement was removed from the electrical code.



    I am still awaiting your post showing where todays code requires the potable water to be electrically continuous.
    Last edited by jwelectric; 12-18-2009 at 04:19 PM. Reason: to highlight panel statement

  5. #20

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    Gas water heater with dielectric fittings will not conduct. It is not connected to electricity at all. When we checked these for continuity, there was none.

    In the absence of line voltage and grounding, 250.104B cannot apply, therefore, common sense and a responsibility to the public applies to ensure that the other 200 feet if copper piping in the home is bonded as required under 250.104A.

    Most homes have a shower so the mixing valve suffices as the bond between hot and cold of the "system", therefore we rarely have the need to require this under 250.104A.

    I and others prefer to protect the public by ensuring there is a bond to all metal water piping in the home and do what is right vs trying to use & interpret the code to such a technical point that the meaning of the code for the safety and protection of the public is lost. Sometimes common sense goes a long way.

    I know a few people like you that are so literal, you misinterpret the actual meaning and intent of the code.

    Protect the public, ensure that the metallic water piping IS bonded as it makes up at least half of the piping in the house. There are instances where it is NOT bonded and we have proven that with DMM's, Meggers & my trusty Simpson analog.

    So the rest of us that care about the public will still require this in the rare occasion that continuity between hot and cold does not exist on an all metallic water piping system and quality electricians will continue to install the jumper for the $10 cost.

    Of course in your world, the $10 is not justified and neither is bonding the other 50% of the metallic water piping because you simply do not understand that there are times where there is not continuity. Probably don't know what a dielectric union is anyway.

    I have told many electricians that the bonding jumper was not required because the shower mixing valve already served that purpose. You need to understand all of the pieces of the puzzle.
    Last edited by jar546; 12-16-2009 at 05:13 AM.
    http://www.inspectpa.com/forum/forum.php
    My answers are based mostly on the ICC codes. Advice given is my personal opinion and every person performing work should acquire a permit from his/her jurisdiction and get the work inspected. My opinions are not directions to follow for DIYs or professionals

  6. #21
    Moderator & Master Plumber hj's Avatar
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    quote; This is a false statement as current will take every possible path available to it. If current always took the path of least resistance how can a human ever feel electrical shock? Wouldn’t the current choose to travel on a path of lesser resistance?

    In that situation, the human being is the ONLY path, regardless of the amount of resistance. Or to put it another way, if you grab two wires and get a shock, WHAT or WHERE would be "the path of lesser resistance? If there is a "path of lesser resistance", which could indicate either usage, such as a light bulb although that would usually be a higher resistance, or a short circuit, the circuit breaker should trip, and if not, there is a serious wiring problem. In any case, installing the jumper may be "voodoo science", but it seems to cure the problem. Or at least the problem does not reoccur for some reason, regardless of what cures it.

  7. #22
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jar546 View Post
    Gas water heater with dielectric fittings will not conduct. It is not connected to electricity at all. When we checked these for continuity, there was none.

    In the absence of line voltage and grounding, 250.104B cannot apply, therefore, common sense and a responsibility to the public applies to ensure that the other 200 feet if copper piping in the home is bonded as required under 250.104A.

    Most homes have a shower so the mixing valve suffices as the bond between hot and cold of the "system", therefore we rarely have the need to require this under 250.104A.

    I and others prefer to protect the public by ensuring there is a bond to all metal water piping in the home and do what is right vs trying to use & interpret the code to such a technical point that the meaning of the code for the safety and protection of the public is lost. Sometimes common sense goes a long way.

    I know a few people like you that are so literal, you misinterpret the actual meaning and intent of the code.

    Protect the public, ensure that the metallic water piping IS bonded as it makes up at least half of the piping in the house. There are instances where it is NOT bonded and we have proven that with DMM's, Meggers & my trusty Simpson analog.

    So the rest of us that care about the public will still require this in the rare occasion that continuity between hot and cold does not exist on an all metallic water piping system and quality electricians will continue to install the jumper for the $10 cost.

    Of course in your world, the $10 is not justified and neither is bonding the other 50% of the metallic water piping because you simply do not understand that there are times where there is not continuity. Probably don't know what a dielectric union is anyway.

    I have told many electricians that the bonding jumper was not required because the shower mixing valve already served that purpose. You need to understand all of the pieces of the puzzle.

    The understanding of all the pieces of the puzzle part of your statement is somewhat misplaced. I assure you that I have all the pieces of the puzzle down pat. It is those idiots that are trying to make something electrically continuous that has absolutely no need to be electrically continuous and thinking that this somehow makes the public safe have no clue of the puzzle let alone the pieces that form the puzzle.
    In your own words please explain what danger comes from an unbounded metal water pipe that has no electrical circuit attached thereto.
    NFPA Volume 79 does not allow a sprinkler system from being used as an electrode so where is the danger in this type of installation?
    I suppose that those who insist that a bond across a water heater is more knowledgeable than those charged with the responsibility of writing the codes or at least they seem to think that they are.
    As to the intent of the code I suppose the comments of the code panel or the ones who write the code mean nothing as to the intent but the personal feelings of some lowly inspector does. Get real and become a professional of your trade instead of a enforcer of your opinion.
    Again I ask you to back your opinion concerning the bonding across a water heater with some sustained facts not opinion.

  8. #23
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hj View Post
    quote; This is a false statement as current will take every possible path available to it. If current always took the path of least resistance how can a human ever feel electrical shock? Wouldnít the current choose to travel on a path of lesser resistance?

    In that situation, the human being is the ONLY path, regardless of the amount of resistance. Or to put it another way, if you grab two wires and get a shock, WHAT or WHERE would be "the path of lesser resistance? If there is a "path of lesser resistance", which could indicate either usage, such as a light bulb although that would usually be a higher resistance, or a short circuit, the circuit breaker should trip, and if not, there is a serious wiring problem. In any case, installing the jumper may be "voodoo science", but it seems to cure the problem. Or at least the problem does not reoccur for some reason, regardless of what cures it.
    Come on here dude letís get real. A short is a low resistance path not a high resistance.
    A 100 watt light bulb would draw .83 amps and using Ohmís Law would have an impedance of 144.5 ohms. An average human will have a resistance of 5000 ohms. Should a person touch the hot wire of a circuit at the point it supplies a 100 watt light bulb that is emitting light according to you comment the person having a higher resistance would not be shocked as the current will only follow the path of least resistance. Why donít you prove your statement and touch the black wire while the light is burning. Come back here if you are able and lets us know if the current choose the path of least resistance or did it take every path available to it.

  9. #24
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
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    I have a building that has a 100 amp service. The only circuit wired to this service is a well that supplies water to a hose bib for the building. This building has no lights or receptacles as it is nothing more than standing stalls for the vet and Ferrier when they come by to service our horses.
    The water is supplied from the well to the cutoff by nonmetallic pipe and the interior of the building has copper from the cutoff to the hose bib.
    What is the proper way to bond this metallic water pipe?
    What danger if any comes from this metallic water pipe?
    Should I install a small water heater and another hose bib should the two bibs be bonded together and if so why?

  10. #25

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    jwelectric

    Guys like you make the worst inspectors. stick to teaching. Remember:

    "Those that can do; those that can't teach"
    http://www.inspectpa.com/forum/forum.php
    My answers are based mostly on the ICC codes. Advice given is my personal opinion and every person performing work should acquire a permit from his/her jurisdiction and get the work inspected. My opinions are not directions to follow for DIYs or professionals

  11. #26
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jar546 View Post
    jwelectric

    Guys like you make the worst inspectors. stick to teaching. Remember:

    "Those that can do; those that can't teach"
    Boy that is a cheap shot and still does not give any substantiation to your remark that the hot and cold needs to be bonded.

    Does this mean that you can not justify the requirement?

    Does this mean that you do not understand the purpose of bonding a metal pipe in the first place?

    Does this mean that you are one of those inspectors that enforces an opinion instead of the adopted codes in your area?

    Come on now at least act like you know what you are talking about instead of slinging insults toward someone you know nothing about.

    I have asked you to do something simple and explain on what merit you are making your statement. I think this is the least you can do after me posting the reason I say that it is silly to even think that something like this would be required. I have shown you the respect of backing my comments with comments from the CMP and feel that you should respect at the least your profession by doing the same and back your comments with some sort of substantiation instead of your personal opinion and as an inspector I think that this much is required.

  12. #27

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    I have given every substantiation that exists and you are too stubborn and tunnel visioned to see the light. You just keep teaching and preaching what you want, the rest of the industry will continue to protect the public.

    We will have to agree to disagree. No sense in continuing this BS.
    http://www.inspectpa.com/forum/forum.php
    My answers are based mostly on the ICC codes. Advice given is my personal opinion and every person performing work should acquire a permit from his/her jurisdiction and get the work inspected. My opinions are not directions to follow for DIYs or professionals

  13. #28
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jar546 View Post
    I have given every substantiation that exists and you are too stubborn and tunnel visioned to see the light. You just keep teaching and preaching what you want, the rest of the industry will continue to protect the public.

    We will have to agree to disagree. No sense in continuing this BS.

    You have given nothing except your opinion. I have given code sections, statements from the code making panels as well as code sections from the codes that are 25 years gone and the only substantiation that leads to your train of thought of continuity of a metal water pipe.

    I have asked you to explain why you think that the metal water pipe needs to be bonded and you have avoided giving an answer.

    I have asked you to give code section you use to enforce your statement and you have avoided the answer.

    Is the simple fact of the matter there is no substantiation to your opinion and there is in fact no practical reason to bond across the water heater the reason you avoid the answer?

    In fact the only answer to my questions you have given is just as the post above that I quoted; a bunch of gibberish that means absolutely nothing.
    Does this mean that you can’t backup your statements with anything except the lingering thoughts of years gone by?

    In the code cycles in years past (before the adoption of the 1987 cycle) it was permissible to terminate the equipment grounding conductor to any metal water pipe. As the years continued and the plumbing codes started including nonmetallic pipes the electrical code changed the requirement to keep metal water pipes electrically continuous therefore the requirement was removed from the electrical code.
    The requirement to bond a metal water piping system using table 250.66 has to do with lightning strikes and the fact that there is nothing in the plumbing codes to forbid a nonmetallic underground water pipe from being replace with a metal water pipe.

    So you see my friend I do have both the puzzle and know just how all the pieces fit together. Yes I have spent many hours studying and researching grounding and bonding as part of my position and have never relied on the opinions of others and their thoughts on this matter.

    Should you decide to move to North Carolina and start inspecting electrical installations you would have to take a course that I helped to design and pass a test that I helped write in order to get certified.
    I guess this means that those who know teach and those who install and inspect have to be shown by those who know.

  14. #29
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
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    Jeff

    I am going to go play in left field today with some of the wisest people in the electrical trade today.
    Don Hursey instructor for NFPA, Mitch Bryant Office of the State Fire Marshall of NC, Ron Chilton Chief Electrical Inspector for the State of North Carolina Department of Insurance, several electrical inspector supervisors through out the state, co-members of the Committee for Electrical Inspectors Instructorís Manual, and a room full of electrical inspectors getting their continuing education for this year.

    Mark Ode will not be able to be with us this year as he is out of the country but he has served on many of the CMPs as well as chair the TCC. He is the lead engineer for UL at Research Triangle Park in NC.

    I shall print out this thread and take it to our class today.
    I have given you a chance to post something to back your statements but for some reason (there ainít none} you have failed to do so therefore I donít have anything from you to prove your statement.
    In any debate competition this would be a loss by default.

  15. #30
    Code Enforcement codeone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwelectric View Post
    In any debate competition this would be a loss by default.
    Dont you mean in any Court this would be a loss by default?

    He with the most paper WINS

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