Fleck 9100 Metered Twin Tank Water Softener - 24,000 Grain

[bluinc]

I bought a system (Fleck 9100 Twin Tank Water Softener - 24000 grain - you can see a sample pic of exactly the same system as what I have here >> http://www.puritecwatersofteners.com...p?idproduct=12 ) from a guy named Art who works for local distributor (www.watercheck.net) here in edgewater MD. He tested my well water and recommended this system. It has been 4 months now and its starting to occasionally spew out red-orange rusty water. At other times, the water is as clean and clear as can be. He initially set it to recharge every 800 gallons. When it started doing this, I backed it down to 700 gallons for good measure. It is going through about a bag of salt every two weeks. I have the brine tank topped off with standard yellow bag solar salt you get from kmart. I did one of those home depot water tests on a day when it was running really clear water for example, and everything came back good to go. I just ruined a huge load of expensive white clothes because it decided to be rusty again today. This has got to stop. What should I do? ( I have called Art, but because i installed the system myself [thus saving 350 dollars], he said he can't help me).

Just for information, when i bought the house, all the sinks, toilets and tubs in the joint were stained red with rust, and the existing old water conditioner had this big blue plastic filter in the line that had the inner fiber filter just completely CAKED with red rust powder that feels like graphite between your fingers. Bottom line, this well pumps out alot of rust, which art knew about, and he said this system was robust enough that it should take care of even the worst rust problems.

Please help. What do I need to add to this system to take care of this rust once and for all and/or is there something I can do/have done to the well to reduce the rust it is dredging up?

Thank you!

[Gary Slusser]

Buy some Iron Out or Super Iron Out and follow the instructions on the label to redo the white clothes with some of it in the washer.

Call Art and tell him he has 10 days to come out and see what's wrong or you'll see him in small claims court where he can explain to the judge why he can't come out because you did the plumbing to install HIS softener.

FIY, if he didn't program the unit for you or tell you how to program it and what to program it with or to, it can't work right. You should mention that to the judge also.

I think the unit is too small and you probably need a backwashed turbidity filter in front of the softener to protect it from dirty/rusty water from the well. He should have known that.

[bluinc]

Untreated, what is your level of iron in ppm?

Thanks for the suggestion.

When the water runs clear, my $9 home depot test shows "satisfactory" for iron content (its just a litmus strip color match type test), but at other times, when it just starts running rusty...its obvious I have rust. I dont need a litmus test to tell me what my white clothes turning orange can't.

As for ppm...I have no idea.

How do I do a ppm rust test? What do I do with this info once I know?

[bluinc]

Buy some Iron Out or Super Iron Out and follow the instructions on the label to redo the white clothes with some of it in the washer.

Call Art and tell him he has 10 days to come out and see what's wrong or you'll see him in small claims court where he can explain to the judge why he can't come out because you did the plumbing to install HIS softener.

FIY, if he didn't program the unit for you or tell you how to program it and what to program it with or to, it can't work right. You should mention that to the judge also.

I think the unit is too small and you probably need a backwashed turbidity filter in front of the softener to protect it from dirty/rusty water from the well. He should have known that.

Thanks Gary.

This Super Iron Out is a product you put in the washing machine to restore rusted out clothes? or is the same product I have heard of that you also put in the brine tank to help get the iron to flush out of the resins during backflush cycle.

What is your opinion of these types of salt that have a "rust out" agent in them...do they work enough to justify the extra cost per bag? Is the same stuff in the additive? If so, which way gets more bang for the buck?

As for the lawsuit...interesting. The conditioner IS only 4 months old - surely its still under warranty. After I installed it, he did come over and "program it" for me, meaning he set it to backflush every 800 gallons. Is there more to it than that? He said there wasnt. Kind of a "set it and forget it" he said. "Just keep the brine tank filled" was all he said I'd need to do.

So this turbidity filter. I am guessing it is the same as that blue filter I mentioned earlier that had that fiber filter in it all caked with rusty powder? I need to get one of those put back in upstream to the conditioner? Can you recommend a brand, size and supplier for me?

When you say my system is too small. I didn't mention that my well only puts out 4gpm (though it was "rated" for 16gpm when dug - according to a local "well guy" if I pay him $600 to "blow out my well pump and screens with LP Air", I will get a higher gpm rating. I havent done that yet as I was cautioned that this may be an unnecessary expense that could possibly either break my well system in some way, or just make it run even more rusty afterward.) I think that 4gpm fact may have prompted Art to recommend to me a 24k grain system. Anything bigger and he thought my well couldn't support it. If I was to make it bigger as you suggest, what would that involve? adding a third media tank? I don't think the two tanks that are there are completely topped off with media. Perhaps I could just buy more media to pour into the two existing tanks?

I know this is a lot to cover in one post - but I really appreciate your, and any one else's help on this.

[Gary Slusser]

This Super Iron Out is a product you put in the washing machine to restore rusted out clothes? or is the same product I have heard of that you also put in the brine tank to help get the iron to flush out of the resins during backflush cycle.

Iron Out or Super IO. Same product, and same stuff in the iron type salt. The salt type will help keep the resin etc. clean. Once every 4-6 weeks, you can also mix say a 1/4 cup of IO or SIO in a gallon or two of water and pour it into the water in the salt tank and do two manual regenerations; one for each tank.

As for the lawsuit...interesting. The conditioner IS only 4 months old - surely its still under warranty. After I installed it, he did come over and "program it" for me, meaning he set it to backflush every 800 gallons. Is there more to it than that? He said there wasnt. Kind of a "set it and forget it" he said. "Just keep the brine tank filled" was all he said I'd need to do.

Warranty is on the component parts of the softener, not if it will remove your iron, soften your water or filter out this rust. A lawsuit would be based on Art not doing this right, IOWs just a softener wouldn't solve your problems with your water, which included rusty water at times. Unless he though you would continue using the replaceable sediment cartridge (blue) filter.

When you have rusty water, that is from ferric iron (rust) or IRB (iron reducing bacteria), not the ferrous clear water iron that your softener removes. A softener can't remove those other types of iron. And they can ruin a softener fairly quickly.

So this turbidity filter. I am guessing it is the same as that blue filter I mentioned earlier that had that fiber filter in it all caked with rusty powder? I need to get one of those put back in upstream to the conditioner? Can you recommend a brand, size and supplier for me?

No, the blue one has a disposable cartridge, a very poor choice for your problem because they block up so quickly. What I suggested is a backwashed filter. Me or any online or local dealer sell them.

When you say my system is too small. I didn't mention that my well only puts out 4gpm (though it was "rated" for 16gpm when dug - according to a local "well guy" if I pay him $600 to "blow out my well pump and screens with LP Air", I will get a higher gpm rating. I havent done that yet as I was cautioned that this may be an unnecessary expense that could possibly either break my well system in some way, or just make it run even more rusty afterward.) I think that 4gpm fact may have prompted Art to recommend to me a 24k grain system. Anything bigger and he thought my well couldn't support it. If I was to make it bigger as you suggest, what would that involve? adding a third media tank? I don't think the two tanks that are there are completely topped off with media. Perhaps I could just buy more media to pour into the two existing tanks?

Too small as in the amount of resin/size of the resin tanks. Resins tanks are normally not filled with resin (packed bed), if they are, they can't backwash to get rid of 'sediment'. Larger means larger tanks with more resin. And yes larger would use some more water per regeneration but regenerate less often but, a 24K tank has a 6.75 gpm constant SFR (service flow rate) which is usually not good even a one bathroom house, unless you get water through both tanks at the same time, and no residential Fleck twin tank control valve can do that.

Your 4 gpm is the recovery rate gpm of the well, the amount of water that runs INTO the well as you use water, not how much water you can take out of the well. If you had the well air lifted/purged, it would remove any rust/sediment in the bottom of the well and possibly stop this infrequent rusty water problem. Air lifting rarely causes any problem, so stop listening to people that have no experience and only a gossipy opinion...

[jadnashua]

How fast you can fill the bladder tank from the well is not the same as what your max flow rate is. You draw water out of the tank and that rate could exceed the pumps output by a lot. For example, filling the washing machine, taking a shower, running the dish washer all at the same time may exceed the pump's output, but would have to flow through the softener. This assumes the softener is after the bladder tank (which it may not be).

[Gary Slusser]

All softeners and all backwashed or regenerated filters must be after the pressure tank or they can not work because when the pump is off, the water comes from the pressure tank and would enter through the outlet of the control valve; in the wrong direction. That's until the pressure fell and turned the pump on and then the water would go the right direction, from the pump into the inlet of the equipment.