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Thread: Need a Water Softner! Which One?

  1. #16
    DIY Junior Member tnewman10's Avatar
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    ONE FINAL QUESTION, before yall come to FIST-A-CUFFS.. LOL.... What are the differences in the aqua systems softeners I first mentioned compared to all the other softeners? Just marketing?

  2. #17
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Yes, it's just marketing and giving the opportunity for the customer to take the valve off the tank and in to the dealer for service.

    The truth is that anyone with the desire and a pair of adjustable pliers can totally replace all 5 replaceable parts on a Clack WS-1 control valve and have their water back on in under 30 minutes. It was designed to be the fastest and easiest to repair, and it is.

    I have sold over 1300 in six yrs next month and have had only 28 warranty problems.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  3. #18
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by george57 View Post
    There you go putting words in my mouth again. Who said I would use 15 lbs of salt? You did! Let's just agree to disagree. Whata say?
    Actually it was YOU that said
    Originally Posted by george57
    I didn't plan on getting more than 30k out of it.
    *************

    Now I know you have to set the salt dose at 15lbs to regenerate 30K in YOUR one cuft volume of regular mesh resin (32K) softener. I also know that YOU SHOULD KNOW THAT.

    So I didn't put words in your mouth as you're now whining about, again.

    I commented on exactly what YOU said. So live with it as you make your customer live with very poor salt efficiency in your small'n most likely undersized softeners.

    Or, learn how to do this stuff right instead of mistakenly thinking you're right and I'm wrong.

    BTW, who's right is easily proven by reading any spec sheet for the resin you sell.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  4. #19
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by george57 View Post
    If I don't plan on using 30k, how in the world am I going to use 15 lbs of salt?
    This is what I mean by saying you are putting words in my mouth. Every time I add to the post, you seem to bash. You can't even agree to disagree.
    That's OK with me. Then you will be regenerating much more frequently than 30K and 15 lbs would require.

    So tell us what you would use as the salt dose lbs and the K of capacity, and how frequently it would regenerate.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  5. #20
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by george57 View Post
    Why do you care what I do? Why do you always bust my balls? Anytime post, you gotta bust my balls about something. Why? Can't I post just as others without you making some commet? The only reason I can think of is that I must be a threat to you.
    I care because in most cases you give incorrect information, as in this thread when your first reply says;

    12-07-2009, 08:49 PM george57 DIY Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: tx Posts: 19

    You may want to look into non electronic models. Some softeners with electronics tends to have problems that only a service tech can fix. If you want to do it yourself, look into the mechnical metered unit.
    .**********

    The incorrect (dishonest?) part there is the "... electronics... problems only a service tech can fix". Name me one brand or model of control valve that ONLY a service guy can fix; or that a DIYer can't fix.

    And then you go on from there proposing he only needs a 1.0 cuft (32K) when you have no idea of how many bathrooms or the type of fixtures are in them. So you had no idea what his peak demand flow rate is because you don't think you need to size for the peak demand gpm, and you're wrong again.

    As to you being a threat to me, I don't think so because I know the pie is large enough for all of us and if you build enough trust and respect to outsell me, good for you but IMO, you have a ways to go.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  6. #21
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by george57 View Post
    I have had well over 10 service calls on Sears, Eco, Autotrol and even Fleck because the customer got into the computer. It is my opinon about the computers and I believe I have the right to voice my opinon without you saying negitive things about it. Remember, you can't even agree to disagree.
    Yes people screw up the programming of their control valve, regardless if it is electronic or mechanical metered or a time clock day timer. That's why I've always given my customers the programming instructions and their data. And I did that when I was a local dealer.

    But that's a bit different than saying "Some softeners with electronics tends to have problems that only a service tech can fix."

    I don't see that statement as an opinon, but I do agree to disagree with you.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  7. #22
    DIY Junior Member tnewman10's Avatar
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    Hi Gary, I talked with you on the phone today and decided to go with the Clack, I just placed my order online via your site... Thanks for the help, Ted... I will tell everyone how great the softener is after I get her hooked up.

  8. #23
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    Super. Glad you were able to come to a solution after having to endure all the controversy. Thanks for letting us know how things work out.

  9. #24
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tnewman10 View Post
    Hi Gary, I talked with you on the phone today and decided to go with the Clack, I just placed my order online via your site... Thanks for the help, Ted... I will tell everyone how great the softener is after I get her hooked up.
    Thank you. It's been ordered and it should ship today and you should get it tomorrow.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  10. #25
    DIY Junior Member ibjamin's Avatar
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    OK, I need a new water softener also. The Sears one I've had for 15 years is about done with. I've had to fix it too often and want something better.

    We're on a Municipal well/city water. 17 gpg hardness, 0.2ppm iron, 0 mang, 0.5ppm fluoride (natural), Chlorine - trace to .02ppm. Using water bills for the last 2 years it appears we average about 160 gallons a day (when not using irrigation). 2 adults in home. SFR is fairly high. 3 bedroom, 2 bath but may do the basement which would add 2 bedrooms and 2 baths.

    1" pipe from street, through a 3/4" meter (have a underground sprinkler system, not softened). 1" copper pipe to the softener. Would like to run 1" through the softener so it would never be a flow limiter.

    Used Gary's sizing calculators and it comes up with 22.8K size with 1.5 cu ft resin. I'm just confused about the results. 1.5 cu ft resin is associated with a 48k size softner. Why so big? Other sites that have tables/calculators say to use around a 24K softener.

    I don't mind getting a bigger softener (in case I add more baths) but won't it not regenerate for a very long time? Like 2 weeks?

    Thanks,

    George

  11. #26
    In the Trades Akpsdvan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ibjamin View Post
    OK, I need a new water softener also. The Sears one I've had for 15 years is about done with. I've had to fix it too often and want something better.

    We're on a Municipal well/city water. 17 gpg hardness, 0.2ppm iron, 0 mang, 0.5ppm fluoride (natural), Chlorine - trace to .02ppm. Using water bills for the last 2 years it appears we average about 160 gallons a day (when not using irrigation). 2 adults in home. SFR is fairly high. 3 bedroom, 2 bath but may do the basement which would add 2 bedrooms and 2 baths.

    1" pipe from street, through a 3/4" meter (have a underground sprinkler system, not softened). 1" copper pipe to the softener. Would like to run 1" through the softener so it would never be a flow limiter.

    Used Gary's sizing calculators and it comes up with 22.8K size with 1.5 cu ft resin. I'm just confused about the results. 1.5 cu ft resin is associated with a 48k size softner. Why so big? Other sites that have tables/calculators say to use around a 24K softener.

    I don't mind getting a bigger softener (in case I add more baths) but won't it not regenerate for a very long time? Like 2 weeks?

    Thanks,

    George
    Big reason for the 1.5 is the Flow rate. When you start adding up the fixture count in your home at what could be 4 bath + kitchen + laundry . So while the 1.0 cubic had the cap to do the job it falls short on flow rate.


    Flow rate is so often over looked when a system of any kind goes in.
    Not only the needed flow rate in the house, but the flow rate from either the private well or city.
    To often I have seen a system that needs 10gpm for backwash and the well at best is doing 5gpm.. some thing is not going to work very well.
    Last edited by Akpsdvan; 12-31-2009 at 03:07 PM.

  12. #27
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ibjamin View Post
    OK, I need a new water softener also.

    We're on a Municipal well/city water. 17 gpg hardness, 0.2ppm iron, 0 mang, 0.5ppm fluoride (natural), Chlorine - trace to .02ppm. Using water bills for the last 2 years it appears we average about 160 gallons a day (when not using irrigation). 2 adults in home. SFR is fairly high. 3 bedroom, 2 bath but may do the basement which would add 2 bedrooms and 2 baths.

    Used Gary's sizing calculators and it comes up with 22.8K size with 1.5 cu ft resin. I'm just confused about the results. 1.5 cu ft resin is associated with a 48k size softner. Why so big? Other sites that have tables/calculators say to use around a 24K softener.

    I don't mind getting a bigger softener (in case I add more baths) but won't it not regenerate for a very long time? Like 2 weeks?
    You need to go back to those pages and study more... especially the sizing page.

    The constant SFR gpm of a softener is dictated by the volume of resin. That gpm has to be higher than your peak demand gpm or the softener can not remove all the hardness in the water. You do not yet know what your peak demand is. The SFR of a 1.5 cuft softener is 12 gpm. A "24K" is a 3/4 cuft and has a constant SFR of 6.75 gpm. The type of fixtures in the bathrooms usually dictate the peak demand.

    To get 24K out of 3/4 cuft of resin, you need to set the salt dose at the max of 15 lbs/cuft (11.25lbs). The need for 22.8K and using a 1.0 cuft requires roughly 8.7 lbs, in a 1.5 cuft, 6.8lbs.. And the 22.8 gets you a regeneration on average once every 8 days based on 1341 gallons on the meter. A 3/4 cuft doesn't come close in salt or water efficiency and is way undersized for 2 or 4 bathrooms.

    For more on this you'd have to call me.
    Last edited by Gary Slusser; 01-01-2010 at 07:40 AM.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  13. #28

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    Call me old school, but I have seen a 1 cu ft unit do just fine in your case. I've been servicing and installing units for around 20 years and have not seen hardness bleed through like what is talked about here. And I have let it be known that I prefer a Fleck valve over any other out there. I just don't like electronics on water softeners. I have seen too many problems with them. I have own one and still don't like them.

  14. #29
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    I come up with 48,000 also.

  15. #30
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skip Wolverton View Post
    Call me old school, but I have seen a 1 cu ft unit do just fine in your case. I've been servicing and installing units for around 20 years and have not seen hardness bleed through like what is talked about here. And I have let it be known that I prefer a Fleck valve over any other out there. I just don't like electronics on water softeners. I have seen too many problems with them. I have own one and still don't like them.
    What salt dose would you use for a 1 cuft?

    How frequently would your 1 cuft regenerate?

    I used to feel the same about electronic control valves but changed from the Fleck 5600 mechanical metered to the Clack WS-1 CS electronic and have had fewer than a dozen electronic type problems in over 1300 sales over 6 yrs next month.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

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