Having plumber coming tomorrow to replace 3" flue with 4"

Users who are viewing this thread

VTXdude

New Member
Messages
127
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
New Hampshire
Have been having a terrible problem with a new Kenmore Power Miser 9 40 gallon Short Gas Water heater. Ever since it has been installed it has not been venting properly and I can smell combustion smells I guess? I have 3 or 4 CO detectors in the house with 2 of them in the basement near the water heater. No readings on any of them

Before this water heater there was a Vanguard 40 gallon tank that never gave me any exhaust issues. The venting setup is not ideal but given my space requirements it is my only option.

With a ruler on the top of the tank it goes up 8 inches into an elbow and the makes a left hand turn horizontal run of about 6 feet before it turns up and runs maybe 2 feet and then turns about 1/2 foot into a T and up a dedicated chimney

I know a total mess

If these guys tear it out and put the 4 inch in maybe eliminating some of the turns should this help?


Why would me 20 year old water heater have no issue with this setup but the new water heater does??


Dude
 

Attachments

  • IMG_1616.jpg
    IMG_1616.jpg
    58.5 KB · Views: 1,486
  • IMG_1615.jpg
    IMG_1615.jpg
    80.7 KB · Views: 1,131
Last edited:

Doherty Plumbing

Journeyman & Gas Fitter
Messages
810
Reaction score
5
Points
0
Location
Penticton, BC
Website
www.facebook.com
Have been having a terrible problem with a new Kenmore Power Miser 9 40 gallon Short Gas Water heater. Ever since it has been installed it has not been venting properly and I can smell combustion smells I guess? I have 3 or 4 CO detectors in the house with 2 of them in the basement near the water heater. No readings on any of them

Before this water heater there was a Vanguard 40 gallon tank that never gave me any exhaust issues. The venting setup is not ideal but given my space requirements it is my only option.

With a ruler on the top of the tank it goes up 8 inches into an elbow and the makes a left hand turn horizontal run of about 6 feet before it turns up and runs maybe 2 feet and then turns about 1/2 foot into a T and up a dedicated chimney

I know a total mess

If these guys tear it out and put the 4 inch in maybe eliminating some of the turns should this help?


Why would me 20 year old water heater have no issue with this setup but the new water heater does??


Dude

A gas appliance that is burning properly doesn't product Carbon Monoxide.

The venting is wrong only because of the 2 90's right before the tee (when it goes up and over into the tee). The 3" doesn't help ofcourse but it may not be bad as you think. A larger vent is not always better! But I just don't like 3" regardless and it's now code (up here in BC) that all appliances that are natural draft appliances should be vented through a min. of 4". But you are still allowed to use 3" if you're doing a refit.

The vent riser (part coming off the top of the HWT) needs to rise up higher so that you have a straight shot over into the tee. Ofcourse the horizontal piece running over to the tee should be graded as to allow the hot products of combustion to rise.

Sometimes it takes up to 5 mins for a vent to heat up. Until it does you aren't going to have proper venting and may have some flu gas spillage.
 
Last edited:

Dlarrivee

New Member
Messages
1,150
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
Canada
What is directly above the hwt?

For the experts: is it okay to have the expansion tank just hanging there? Personally I'd like to see it supported somehow.
 

VTXdude

New Member
Messages
127
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
New Hampshire
Thank you for your reply. I wont be able to get a straight shot to the tee because as you can see in the pic that pipe needs to shoot behind the furnace with like zero clearance...so I will still need the first bend and then another bend to get going in the right direction

That flue pipe heats up REAL quick I cant touch it all the way up to the Tee but suprisingly I can touch it at the chimney part...what's up with that?


I imagine that these plumbers are competent and will know what to do..I'm just so worried about the exhaust smell that fills my basement when the heater is on for a bit...actually over near the heater it is not too bad, it is when you get going towards the stairs and in the stairwell where it is the worst


Dude
 

Doherty Plumbing

Journeyman & Gas Fitter
Messages
810
Reaction score
5
Points
0
Location
Penticton, BC
Website
www.facebook.com
What is directly above the hwt?

For the experts: is it okay to have the expansion tank just hanging there? Personally I'd like to see it supported somehow.

I'd support it as well.

Thank you for your reply. I wont be able to get a straight shot to the tee because as you can see in the pic that pipe needs to shoot behind the furnace with like zero clearance...so I will still need the first bend and then another bend to get going in the right direction

That flue pipe heats up REAL quick I cant touch it all the way up to the Tee but suprisingly I can touch it at the chimney part...what's up with that?


I imagine that these plumbers are competent and will know what to do..I'm just so worried about the exhaust smell that fills my basement when the heater is on for a bit...actually over near the heater it is not too bad, it is when you get going towards the stairs and in the stairwell where it is the worst


Dude


1. If you don't get rid of the over up and over bit you're always going to have problems there is no doubt about that. Basically what you have in the venting there with a cold chimney is a thermal trap. The hot flue gases have to push there way through the thermal trap and up into the chimney until everything is heated up.

2. The portion right above the HWT will always get hot right away. When I speak of the vent heating up I'm referring to the whole thing. The hotter the vent/chimney is the better drafting you will get. So this is what's happening for you (IMO).... It's taking longer then it should to heat up the vent/chimney and you're getting excess spillage.

3. The reason you can't touch the venting off the hot water tank but you can touch the chimney is because the HWT venting is c-vent (single wall galvanized) and the other stuff is b-vent which is double walled venting with a layer of air in between layers to act as insulation.
 

VTXdude

New Member
Messages
127
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
New Hampshire
Ok what are my options given that is the only way out? I'm hoping the plumber knows


Why would my old water heater be so much different and work fine???????
 

VTXdude

New Member
Messages
127
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
New Hampshire
A gas appliance that is burning properly doesn't product Carbon Monoxide.


When you say is burning properly....if exhaust isn't venting properly and has spillage isn't that CO? What are the fumes I am smelling? I know CO is oderless but can't it be contained in what I am smelling? As I said 2 CO detectors in basement 3 feet from WH and no readings
 

Master Plumber Mark

Sensitivity trainer and plumber of mens souls
Messages
5,533
Reaction score
354
Points
83
Location
indianapolis indiana - land of the free, home of
Website
www.weilhammerplumbing.com
Sears is Junk

Its not the vent , its the lint

What I see wrong is the dryer sitting right next to this junkey sears water heater....

the lint has probably clogged up the bottom of the unit already... that is probably the problem

if you look at you hood vent you will notice that it is
restricted down to 3 inch comming off the top of the heater...
adding a 4 inch flu off the
3 inch reducer will not change anything...

other things I see wrong
it should be in a pan...
the thermal expansion tank should have a
copper 3/4 leg on it supported down to the floor..

the t+p drain pipe ought to be ran to the washing machine drain...


here is a link to complaints about your SEARS----a.o.Smith---- heater
and I already saw a few very similar to your situation about a dozen times over
with how they finally remedied the problem..


I am sorry, but they are junk,
but I hope that this helps you either way

http://baheyeldin.com/technology-in...ty-help-with-kenmore-water-heater.html?page=1
 
Last edited:

VTXdude

New Member
Messages
127
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
New Hampshire
Its not the vent , its the lint

What I see wrong is the dryer sitting right next to this junkey sears water heater....

the lint has probably clogged up the bottom of the unit already... that is probably the problem

if you look at you hood vent you will notice that it is
restricted down to 3 inch comming off the top of the heater...
adding a 4 inch flu off the
3 inch reducer will not change anything...

other things I see wrong
it should be in a pan...
the thermal expansion tank should have a
copper 3/4 leg on it supported down to the floor..

the t+p drain pipe ought to be ran to the washing machine drain...


here is a link to complaints about your SEARS----a.o.Smith---- heater
and I already saw a few very similar to your situation about a dozen times over
with how they finally remedied the problem..


I am sorry, but they are junk,
but I hope that this helps you either way

http://baheyeldin.com/technology-in...ty-help-with-kenmore-water-heater.html?page=1


I understand from other posts that you do not like Kenmore's mark


It is not a.o smith heater, it is a State made in the US but I think I've read that you do not like them either. What can explain the exhaust smell? Is it because it is a Kenmore? Would a Bradford White with the same venting perform better? Also aren't most WH vented for 3" for the draft hood?
 

VTXdude

New Member
Messages
127
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
New Hampshire
One other question..will the plumber be able to use Type B 4" venting pipe on the horizontal run or does it have to be single wall?


Thank you


Dude
 

Doherty Plumbing

Journeyman & Gas Fitter
Messages
810
Reaction score
5
Points
0
Location
Penticton, BC
Website
www.facebook.com
When you say is burning properly....if exhaust isn't venting properly and has spillage isn't that CO? What are the fumes I am smelling? I know CO is oderless but can't it be contained in what I am smelling? As I said 2 CO detectors in basement 3 feet from WH and no readings

No that's not CO. CO is produced when the gas is improperly burned. The spillage of the flue gases doesn't mean it's not burning properly it means it's not venting properly.

The lint has nothing to do with how well the appliance vents. If the primary air intake on the appliance is plugged up you could be producing CO because the gas might not be getting enough air for complete combustion. But this won't effect it's ability to vent. The combustion process should still pull in secondary air and finally dilution air once it hits the draft hood.

I already explained how to fix your situation. There isn't any 2 ways around it. The venting is goofy and needs to be fixed.
 

VTXdude

New Member
Messages
127
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
New Hampshire
No that's not CO. CO is produced when the gas is improperly burned. The spillage of the flue gases doesn't mean it's not burning properly it means it's not venting properly.

The lint has nothing to do with how well the appliance vents. If the primary air intake on the appliance is plugged up you could be producing CO because the gas might not be getting enough air for complete combustion. But this won't effect it's ability to vent. The combustion process should still pull in secondary air and finally dilution air once it hits the draft hood.

I already explained how to fix your situation. There isn't any 2 ways around it. The venting is goofy and needs to be fixed.

I appreciate your response, it is very helpful...I know it is goofy but above you said that the venting is only wrong because of the 2 90's right before the Tee.....so even though it comes up at the elbow and then hangs a left before the horizontal that is ok? Not ideal but ok? If you look at that pic you'll see I really don't have much option except maybe have a little more vertical at the beginning.


Also can you use Type B for the horizontal run?

Thanks so much I really apprciate your input




Dude
 

hj

Master Plumber
Messages
33,600
Reaction score
1,037
Points
113
Location
Cave Creek, Arizona
Website
www.terrylove.com
heater

From the picture, it LOOKS like the horizontal pipe is dropping downward. State and AO Smith, (along with Reliance and a couple of others), are the same heaters, just branded differently.
 

Master Plumber Mark

Sensitivity trainer and plumber of mens souls
Messages
5,533
Reaction score
354
Points
83
Location
indianapolis indiana - land of the free, home of
Website
www.weilhammerplumbing.com
squirrel or crow in the chimmney?????

I understand from other posts that you do not like Kenmore's mark


It is not a.o smith heater, it is a State made in the US but I think I've read that you do not like them either. What can explain the exhaust smell? Is it because it is a Kenmore? Would a Bradford White with the same venting perform better? Also aren't most WH vented for 3" for the draft hood?

A.O.Smith makes State, kenmore, and now owns american water heaters....

they are basically all the same....


I assume that you have checked to see if you have draw up the
chimmney by takeing a match or cigarette or burning paper
and putting it near the chimmney to see if it goes up???



also, you could have something as simple as a bird or
squirrel burnt up in the chimmney which will also make the place
stink like hell......I have had that with a Bradford before...





that chimney is not really goofey looking to me
....it looks pretty common to me, single wall vent
going over to a double wall b-vent out the roof...


although you could take out the last elbow going
into the heater and simply drop the arm down about
5 inches to give it more upward rise...




this is a process of elimination,
after the chimmney is changed out, then let me know the results...




I hope it dont cost you too much.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

VTXdude

New Member
Messages
127
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
New Hampshire
Thanks guys..Mark I need that elbow coming out of the heater to move it over so it runs behind the furnace...chimney changed out? You mean the flue pipe right?


Also can anyone tell me if the plumber can use Type B piping for the run rather than the single wall pipe?


Thanks!!


Dude
 

Dunbar Plumbing

Master Plumber
Messages
2,920
Reaction score
10
Points
0
Location
Northern Kentucky/Greater Cincinnati Area
Website
www.KoldBreeze.com
I just read this entire thread.



Mark that's the first time I've seen troubles on Sears/Kenmore water heaters, and 13 pages is pretty telling as they all have issues relative to the same issue it seems.

I don't put in water heaters on a daily basis but none of my water heaters, with exception to 3 Sears/Kenmore water heaters have given issue:

1. Gas, 2 years after install the pilot wouldn't stay lit. Customer paid $90 to have a new burner assembly installed, no cost for parts

2. Electric, idiot techs turned the thermostats up on a warranty visit to 160 degrees, lasted 11 months until the thermostats burned up. Lower one was smoking when I pulled the cover off. :eek:

3. Electric, customer bought water heater and sat in basement 4 years in box, dry area. Exactly 1 year from the time I installed that heater finally the thermostats went bad.


I'd have to look, but I know I'm talking about in total maybe 100 water heaters I've installed over the 8 years under this company name. Most of them not purchased by me, always the property owner.

I could be just lucky, but down here in kentucky I've had some good success.

When I installed for sears back in 98' in 12 counties, we did MA warranties all over. In Ohio on the east side was the worst. Constant problems with water heaters.

In Kentucky it was random, but we was still doing warranty replacements weekly across the board.

Just food for thought, but that complaint page is startling, especially if my customers start having problems even after all the years without issue, so far.


To the thread starter,


Do NOT do anything with that flue setup until you get a draft gauge and test the draft on that water heater in operation.

Google Dwyer 460 air meter, commonly used by hvac guys to determine air velocity in cold air returns, heat runs.

When I installed for 4 companies (home depot/lowes/sears/american home shield), out of the 4, Sears required us to test for draft.

The rules as follows:

Draft minimum: 300fpm's << Feet per minute

Range for a new water heater: 400-900fpm's

Must run water heater for 10 minutes and test to make sure flue is warming up to create draw.

Immediate testing of water heater startup is a false reading.

Also, test unit (if furnace wyes together to this water heater) when furnace fires up to see if exhaust gases are backdrawing towards the water heater with or without the water heater operating.



Did you pop out the push in cap in the bottom of that stack flue tee and look to the roof to see if daylight is present, no obstruction?

Remove all that pipe including the cap, piping leading towards the flue pipe.


There could possibly be dead animals in that run, like a bird(s) squirrels, chipmunks, anything that fell down that piping if there's no chimney cap and tried to reach the daylight through the end of that piping, died when the unit kicked on.



If after 10 minutes that draft gauge isn't indicating 300fpm flow, minimum, that's the first place to determine why.
 

Master Plumber Mark

Sensitivity trainer and plumber of mens souls
Messages
5,533
Reaction score
354
Points
83
Location
indianapolis indiana - land of the free, home of
Website
www.weilhammerplumbing.com
Dunbar...you are up late tonight

Its amazeing what you can stumble upon on google

I accidently found that sears complaint blog a few years ago... actually it has 18 pages of complaints...someone just posted a complaint tonight too......

they appear to all be fairley new units so you probably wont have too many issues,

but it certainly makes you wince if you have installed 4 or 5 dozen of them....


my first guess is a squirrel,,,,

then if that aint it then its the lint under the heater
 

hj

Master Plumber
Messages
33,600
Reaction score
1,037
Points
113
Location
Cave Creek, Arizona
Website
www.terrylove.com
flue

He CAN use class B vent, but you will get few, if any, any benefits by doing so. There is nothing combustible next to the single wall, so the only benefit would be a slight heat retention, and since that may not be the cause of your problem would not cure it.
 

VTXdude

New Member
Messages
127
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
New Hampshire
HJ take a look at the Tee pic..the last 3 feet of the horizontal run pass by beams and insulation as well as the upshoot to the Tee...very close
 
Last edited:

Jimbo

Plumber
Messages
8,918
Reaction score
18
Points
0
Location
San Diego, CA
What does the install manual for that unit say about flue pipe? It probably says 3", and it is hard to see where changing to 4 inch will do much for your problem.
 
Top
Hey, wait a minute.

This is awkward, but...

It looks like you're using an ad blocker. We get it, but (1) terrylove.com can't live without ads, and (2) ad blockers can cause issues with videos and comments. If you'd like to support the site, please allow ads.

If any particular ad is your REASON for blocking ads, please let us know. We might be able to do something about it. Thanks.
I've Disabled AdBlock    No Thanks