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Thread: Should I add a CSV?

  1. #1
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    Default Should I add a CSV?

    I've got a well system in my home. Here's a quick breakdown:

    Goulds 7GS05411 (installed 11/06 - hope it has a Franklin motor) - 106' below pitless adapter
    22-gallon diaphragm pressure tank (charged to 38PSI)
    40/60 pressure switch

    Our home used to have a jet pump, shortly after we moved in (less than a year) it gave up the ghost and we converted to a submersible system. The existing black PE pipe that previously ran down to the foot valve was reused and now connects the submersible to the pitless adapter. The same pipe runs 6' from the pitless adapter into the crawlspace where it hits a check valve (which maybe shouldn't be there according to what I've read on this forum) and connects to the tee/tank assembly with the pressure switch, gauge, hose bib, etc.

    I'm looking to install a CSV1Z (where the check valve is currently located, perhaps?). We've got 2.5 baths, dishwasher, washing machine, refrigerator with icemaker, etc.

    The way I see it, I should install the CSV with a setting of 50 PSI. I just want to make sure the PE pipe can handle it, as I understand it'll be under increased (constant?) pressure between the CSV and the submersible. And, do I even need one? It seems like a good idea, a cheap investment that will prolong the life of the system, and constant water pressure would be nice.

    Any input is appreciated. Thanks in advance.
    Last edited by JMMJR; 11-25-2009 at 09:52 AM.

  2. #2
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    A 22 gallon tank only holds about 6 gallons of water. At that depth and pressure, the 7G05 is trying to pump about 8 GPM. That means if you are using a 4 GPM shower or sprinkler, the other 4 GPM goes into the pressure tank for 1.5 minutes and the pump shuts off. Then the 4 GPM drains the tank in 1.5 minutes and the pump comes back on. That is a cycle every 3 minutes, which can be 480 cycles in a 24 hour period, or 120 cycles in a 6 hour sprinkler zone.

    I am sure you are also noticing the pressure in the shower change from 40 to 60 and back again every couple of minutes, which can be irritating. A CSV1Z set at about 55 PSI will deliver constant pressure to the shower or sprinklers. The back pressure from the 7G05 will only be 130 PSI, so even 160# pipe is fine. Yes it should go in place of the above ground check valve. The CSV will increase the life of your pump system, and give you much better pressure in the shower.

  3. #3
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    Thanks for the reply. Do I have to adjust my pressure switch at all?

  4. #4
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    No. You will have to adjust the valve. Just turn the bolt until it holds steady at about 55 PSI, while you are running the kitchen sink. (or about 2 GPM)

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    Thanks again. The reason I ended up here...

    As described in my original post, we did the conversion to the submersible nearly 2 years ago. It wasn't cheap, it was flat-out expensive. Less than 2 years later, we found ourself with an inoperable well pump. The problem ended up being the wires rubbed through. When that got repaired, I was told my pressure tank was bad. I found this hard to believe, because it was new (was only about a year old at the time we did the submersible conversion). I decided to educate myself a little, and I learned enough to check it out myself. I found it wasn't charged. I precharged it to 38PSI and confirmed it is not leaking. My best guess is that it wasn't charged and wasn't checked when they did the submersible install. So, for nearly 2 years the pump cycled like crazy - and that's what did the wiring in I would guess.

    More spacers were installed and a much better job of installing/taping the wire was done when they did the wiring replacement. So, I am hoping it holds up...

    My anger over the situation has led me to spend alot of time learning as much as I can. Just from reading this forum, I found out about torque arrestors. But, after reading more - I realized I probably don't need one and hopefully the installation of the CSV will eliminate excess cycling and protect my wires.

    As soon as I find the best price I can on a CSV1Z, I'll be getting one and installing it in short order.

  6. #6
    Moderator valveman's Avatar
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    Please come back and let us know what you think.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by speedbump View Post
    www.cyclestopvalves.com I think I have the best pricing on CSV's.

    bob...
    Thanks for the reply. I checked out your site. I guess I'll have to call to find out what shipping would cost. Price is comparable to what I've found.
    Last edited by valveman; 11-20-2009 at 06:00 AM.

  8. #8
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    Various things got in the way so I never got around to installing the CSV.

    But, I just had to replace my pressure tank which blew. So, this has renewed my interest. I'll be posting a few pictures of the setup in my crawlspace. I do not trust the plastic elbow with hoseclamps that the plumbers used when they installed the submersible to make the transition from the black PE pipe coming from the well to the copper inside the house at the pressure tank tee.

    I am afraid if I put the CSV in place beyond that point the backpressure will blow this half-assed connection apart.

    I'll go back in the crawlspace tomorrow and take a few pictures to post here.
    Last edited by JMMJR; 11-19-2009 at 08:11 PM.

  9. #9
    Moderator valveman's Avatar
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    "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure." A CSV back then would have kept your tank from blowing now. I agree with you on the half ass connection.

  10. #10
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    I agree, to a point.

    The thing is, after I pulled it - I found out that the old tank was much older than I was told by the previous owner of the house. We bought the house in May '05 and were told the tank was only a few years old. It looked new and shiny. Well, it turns out it was installed in 1994. Our crawlspace has a concrete floor, and the walls are block. It's always bone dry so of course it would still LOOK good evne though it was that old. The back side against the wall is where it blew out.

    Once my wife is done in our laundry room and I can access the crawlspace I'll go in and take those pictures.

    EDIT: Picture of the crappy connection attached.
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    Last edited by JMMJR; 11-20-2009 at 11:16 AM.

  11. #11
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    "crappy connection"... there are millions of them that have been used on water lines, including city water service lines, for 50 yrs, they are just as good as any other connection. And you don't have to have space for wrenches, use pipe dope or tape so what do you see wrong with it, has it leaked (since 1994 was it)?

    The only thing I see is that the main line was too short to use a 1" MPT elbow x insert instead of the male adapter and short piece of PE and then the elbow.
    Last edited by Gary Slusser; 11-20-2009 at 12:36 PM.
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  12. #12
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    That connection is from 2006 when we were converted from a jet pump to submersible. The pressure tank was from 1994, a holdover from the jet pump.

    There's plenty of room for wrenches. The picture is decieving but there is two feet of space between that fitting and the block wall pictured behind it.

    Think that connection will stand up to the 130 PSI backpressure if I install a CSV beyond it? If so, then I'll leave it as it is.

    The short piece of PE below the elbow was hacked off the end of the main piece that is coming out of the wall from the pitless adapter. The brass you see it clamped to is actually a check valve.

    Below the check valve is 6" of copper, then an elbow which then connects to the tee assembly.

  13. #13
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMMJR View Post
    The picture is decieving but there is two feet of space between that fitting and the block wall pictured behind it.

    Think that connection will stand up to the 130 PSI backpressure if I install a CSV beyond it? If so, then I'll leave it as it is.

    The short piece of PE below the elbow was hacked off the end of the main piece that is coming out of the wall from the pitless adapter. The brass you see it clamped to is actually a check valve.

    Below the check valve is 6" of copper, then an elbow which then connects to the tee assembly.
    Two feet out of the wall is much better than 3" coming out of the wall. But there is no problem with how many feet come out of the wall. Although I would have taken the line down so far out of the wall and then straight into the tank tee, there's nothing wrong with the way it was plumbed.

    Up to 1.5 hp pumps are hung on PE pipe down wells to 500"+. You probably have 160 psi rated PE, the pipe is marked about every 18-24". And unless your pump is way over sized, it will probably never build deadhead pressure unless you shut off the output of the pump totally; which a CSV doesn't do.

    If that brass part is a check valve, it should be removed. Having an additional one opter than the one on/in the pump hides leaks before it and that's not good.

    BTW, I've never seen an insert/barbed check valve, so if the PE is just clampoed on the the threaded end of a check valve, that is no good.
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  14. #14
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    Thanks for the reply. I am certain that the short piece of PE is just clamped onto the threads of that check valve.

    I posted earlier that I know now the check valve needs to go based on what I read on this forum.

    The thing is, how do I eliminate the check valve and fix this connection correctly?
    Last edited by JMMJR; 11-20-2009 at 03:54 PM.

  15. #15
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    You'll need to configure the existing pipe to reach or get a new longer piece and use a mail adapter by insert fitting to replace the check valve.

    I always carried 5-6 pieces of new PE in various lengths and ratings from like a foot long up to like 6' long to use in cases like this. Any well driller, pump guy or some plumbers would have a foot long piece. Just make sure it is 125 psi or higher rating.

    On the other hand, an extended barb male adapter will be longer than the check valve and you may not need a longer piece of PE. But get the stuff before tearing anything apart. You'll have to slit the PE to get it off a barbed insert.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

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