Drain back valve problems

Gary Slusser said:

I take it that the air is vented at the kitchen sink somehow. ...Hopefully Woodsdancer will explain how the air is vented.

Gary
Quality Water Associates

Click to expand...

wow, I had no idea my setup was so unusual (or perhaps that my understanding was so bad)... but let's see what else I know (or think) I can tell you.

yes, I'm in vermont... snow country from november through April. Freeze is a serious concern

the pressure tank is located in a cupboard in the kitchen. It's at the presure tank that I hear the hiss when the system quits. That is why I say the air flow is from the kitchen to pipe (better to have said "near the pressure tank to pipe"). I had just assumed that actual valve was at the tank, not in the well and that the hissing I hear comes from that valve.

I hadn't thought about the fact that there must also be a venting out (to kitchen or somewhere) of that air when the pump starts up (there is no noticable hiss at that point, although the tank does make a fair bit of noise, that I would describe more as gurgling than hissing).

The time that I hear the loudest hiss of that flow is when the well quits. (I can hear it then from the next room -- and usually run to shut off the water.) There is often just a very faint slow hiss when there is no apparent water activity in the house. That part I don't understand at all.

And the original posting came from what seems to me (or is it wishful thinking?) that my problem is associated with rapid draw down more than total water use... and wondering is the drain back valve (with it's loud noise at thatpoint) could be related to that.

Ok Gary, here's what I think at this point. See if this makes sense.

The tank is in the kitchen, he/she hears air hissing in the kitchen when the pump shut's off. Not when the pump starts or is pumping.

I hear this all the time at the top of a well seal when a pump turns off. Air hisses out of the well seal through whatever little opening it can find when the well is recovering. (Water level is coming back after a pump cycle) I have seen some drillers vent the well into a basement, kitchen? etc. Why I am not too sure. Maybe to keep birds and flying cattle from getting sucked through the top of the pitless adaptor or whatever. I'll bet if he/she would look under the sink or where ever the tank is, there will be a tube somewhere that is doing the hissing. It may be only 1/8" or 1/4" tube. Take a look.

bob...

ok, here's the setup as best I can see:
from tank down to floor (where the pipe disappears)
- tank connection
- pressure swtch connection
- the visual pressure gage
- the nipple that does the hissing
- the floor where everything disappears

the hissing nipple looks just about like a tire valve (inch and a quarter long, perhaps 1/4 or 3/8 diameter, threaded; it even seems to have a pin inside Putting one's finger over it when it is mildly hissing (e.g. the normal state) stops the hiss. [I have never tried that step when I am in the process of losing pressure and the hiss is violent]

I say "seems" to have a pin because I can't actually get my head into a position where I can actually see it; but with a pen, I can press inside the nipple and make the hiss louder).

There is a separate nipple (much fancier) on the pressure tank itself (presumably for adjusting the pressure in the air portion of the bladder?).

Although the visual pressure gage is closer to the tank than the hissing valve, both are imbedded in a pipe segmet baring the label "flowmatic".

hmm, suddenly I am realizing that the pressure-holding valve must be at this point or even closer to the well, not right at the tank.

thanx again for continuing to help me understand this

p.s. I can save you some typing: it's "he"

Are you sure you have a bladder tank?????

What you just described is an air making system. The flowmatic is a check valve and it is what they call double tapped. Meaning the gauge or pressure switch or both are on the tank side of the valve and the "schrader valve" is on the well side. It is letting water out of the line each time the pump shuts off. It may have been put there to drain the line to prevent freezing only but it is the same thing as and air maker. The wierd part is you saying you have a bladder tank. (or maybe you didn't say that, I'm getting old you know) Anyway, the tank is probably already a galvanized tank and the air release valve on the tank is bad, causing the air in the lines. If you replace that valve on the tank, about 1/3rd of the way up on the side your air should go away.

Now all we have left is to figure out how to keep you from running out of water all the time which I think was your original question. (My fingers are getting tired) And maybe your not running out of water, your just getting lots of air because of the bad air release valve.

bob...

Hmm, well I thought it was a bladder tank. Perhaps I just assumed it was, since it is relatively new (insalled perhaps 2002); it is painted (blue; not obviously galvenized) and has a decal indicating Grundfus (but that seems to be just a place to write the specs for (presumably for the edification of any service person;no info about the tank)).

the valve you are suggesting replacing is the one actually on the tank itself, right? ( labeled Johnson control F93B-1, seems to have two places where one could add or release air); not the one that is releasing the air with a hiss on the pipe (that's the 'schrader' valve?)

and you are right about the original problem: basically I'm trying to figure out if somehow this valve configuration is causing the apparent lack of water. Loss of water pressure does not seem to be connected very strongly with water use... I think at the time of the original query I had run out first thing in the morning after one shower (water-saver head) and two flushes ... but have had no problem since. Another time I ran out, the well company came out a few hours later and said I had plenty of water. go figure.

if I restrict allow free flow to things like the washing machine, it can quit during the first wash cycle of the first load. If I slow the flow down I can do probably 3 loads...

If this well company didn't know that all the air in your lines was caused by a bad Johnson air release valve, get a new well company.

That control is what we have be talking all around for a bunch of posts. By all means have it replaced and see what happens. That for now is probably your biggest problem. And that tank is definately not a bladder tank if it has the air release valve. It is probably a glass lined tank. I'm not sure why they would use a painted tank but maybe it's just me.

bob...

I think that valve is what we call a snifter valve. It allows air to be sucked into the line (vaccum breaker) and the water drains back. It's usually installed on a dual tapped check valve that prevents the water under pressure in the pressure tank to remain in the tank. Since the valve is allowing air into the lumbing back to the well, air has to be vented somewhere or you'd always have air in your water and spitting at all fixtures that the plumbing would allow air to flow to; like the highest fistures.

I think you have a dry well condition at those times you run out of water and the well recovered by the time the driller showed up and checked the water level in the well.

Gary
Quality Water Associates