Drain back valve problems

Hi
I have a well, which sporatically gives me strange problems -- which I *think* may be connected with the drain back valve: it acts as if I am out of water, but with no apparent reason.
I think the well itself is about 90 feet; submerged pump. The pressure tank has a drain back valve because the intake pipe runs over ledge close to the surface.
The symtom I experience is that periodically I run out of water for no apparent reason -- this morning after one shower and two toilet flushes; this on a system that one day last week washed three loads of clothes, and, heck, it even rained all day two days ago. When the water stops, I hear the drain back valve hissing ... for a long time (in fact that is usually the thing that first attracts my attention).
There is a lever on the switch to force the punp to run even when the pressure is too low. and sure enough, the well does not produce any water. Usually in a couple hours I can use water again at full speed, but in the mean time, no water.
Can something other than low water level be causing this problem?

Thanx for any ideas

The fact that you have a low pressure switch, suggests you have a low producing well, not a low water level.

If it is possible to lower the submersible pump, it would be helpful. If it's near the bottom already you may have to look at conserving water. Or get a much larger storage tank.

Even though I advocate bladder tanks. Living in hurricane land, I have a little bladder tank, far too small for my 1.5hp pump, but I have the Flexcon Smart Tee on the tank. This prevents cycling when I'm watering my banana trees. I also have the 120 gallon galvanized tank. When the power goes out, I have enough storage to do several things before the water stops completely. Then I can go run the generator to fill it back up again.

If you have the room, consider having someone install you a galvanized tank off your main line. Just use one hole on the tank. Plug the rest. It will add to the drawdown of your system, saving the pump motor and give more water in peak times.

bob...

Thanx speedbump,

alas, your response suggests I understand even less than I thought about how this works.

But yes, as I understand my own situation, I do in fact have a low producing well ... without digging up the pump info, I do seem to recall the installer saying that the pump could not keep up with the demand if I used water rapidly.

when I say "run out of water" what I mean is the system suddenly stops delivering water to the tap ... one time when I had this problem the well company came out and assured me I had plenty of water in the well. So it's as if the "system" fails me.

And I almost get the impression that my problem is that when I open a large tap, the pump doesn't deliver it as fast as I use it, resulting in no pressure so the low-pressure switch cuts off the pump and then there is no water at thetap even though there may be water in the well...

in fact I have restricted the supply lines to the washing machine (easily my biggest draw)... should I, in effect, put governors on all the taps.

I'm not sure I understand the suggeston about the extra holding tank. should it be an intermediate stop between the well and the pressure tank?

thanx again for helping me

What the big galvanized tank will do is; when your not running water, the well will fill that tank as well as your bladder tank. This takes more time, but if your not using water so what. Now when that washing machine needs more water than the bladder tank and well can give it, the galvanized tank says "here you can have some of mine" aren't galvanized tanks nice?

That's pretty much how it works. Just more storage.

By the way, there are protection devices out there that are far more reliable than that low pressure cut off switch.

bob...

thanx again, bob

I understand the goal of the large tank. What I don't understand is where the pressure comes from to emty its water into my system. I assume the littl;e bladder in my pressure tank can't push 100 gallons out. And I guess where it fits logically in the chain: pump - pressure tank - tap.

and can you point me to the alternatives (e.g., some names) for the low pressure switch (which I assume is what I am overriding when I hold that little in coinveneient lever up)

thanx again ... (this is very educational

Your pump motor is almost definately a Franklin. So I would recommend the Pumptec Plus. For just over $300.00 it's a little pricey. If it can save you the cost of replacing a pump at around $1000.00 give or take a bit it is cheap.

The galvanized tank can be teed (teed ???) into the incoming line either before or after the bladder tank. The air in the galvanized tank when pressurized by the pump will push the water out just like it does in your bladder tank. So it will physicallly give you far more water after the pump quits than the bladder tank can. Or hopefully before the pump quits. In other words you will have more water to use every time you use it before the pump even has to come on.

bob...

Bob, if he has to lift the handle on his low pressure safety switch, he's running out of water, no? Here we use them on low producing wells when there is a potential for the pump to suck air due to the water level falling to the pump inlet.

Gary
Quality Water Associates

hmm... still some confusion

the pump is not a Franklin, but a Grundfus 1.5 hp submersible ... supposedly capable of delivering 6 gpm...

if I think I now understand the idea of the second (steel) take, it is simply serving as a second pressure take.but since the on/off switch is attached to the other, the exact amount of water or pressure in the seciond tank is not particularly important... it would serve as a buffer against momentary shortaflls in water. wouldn't help much when my water levelis reallylow but would help when I just used too much in a few minutes.

Yup, I think he's running out of water too. The problem with those M4 switches is; let's say the pump comes on, while it's pumping the well runs out of water but before the pump pressure gets low enough to open the points the faucet is shut off. Now as long as the pump has lost it's prime it will keep running because the pressure switch hasn't lost enough pressure to shut off the motor. So it keeps running. I've not seen it happen a lot, but I hate to give someone false security when the other devices work better.

And Woodsdancer, I think you have the concept. Beside the extra water in the second tank, galvanized tanks unlike bladder tanks will nearly empty themselves by giving water to almost zero pressure. So a 120 gallon galvanized tank could actually run until around 90 gallons has come out. The pressure will deminish as the water gets lower in the tank, but you will have a big cushion. The 120 gallon bladder tank will only give you 12 gallons between 40 and 60 pounds. Then it's empty at 38 lbs.

Oh by the way, the Grundfos has a Franklin motor too.

bob...

bob...

wow ...lots of help out there... and me like a sponge ;-)
so a few (well it now looks like several) more questions

- is an 'm4' switch the part that is the little lever: "hold it up just the right amound and the pump runs"?; needed when the pressure has fallen to zero.

- I started out thinking the problem was somehow related to my drain back valve, but everyone (well both of you helpful people) seem to be focusing on water level and/or the low pressure switch. Was I totaly barking up the wrong tree?

- bob you were comparing the 120 galvanized steel tank to a 120 gallon bladder tank. Mine can't be anywhere near that capacity. I don't see any label, but I'd estimate it at 10 gallons (about as high as a jerry can). Could this be my problem?: the pressure tank is so small that there just is no cushion at all? So even the briefest burst of use empties the pressure tank????

is a 120 gallon galvanized tank hartd to find these days? e.g. can I just call my well company and ask them to install one? or even wrestle into place and connect it myself?

- this is the scenario my inexpertienced brain was originally picturing: during a short period of high use, the pressure tank empties itself (that is falls not only below the turn on level but also below the low pressure cut off); the low pressure valve then shuts off the pump so it can't refill; because the pump is off, the drain back valve has allowed the water in the pipe to drain back to the pump, so it takes a long time for water from the pump to again reach the pressure tank (enabling the rapid drain without the pump starting), somehow making it harder to start?
is this concept way off? Problem really does seem more related to short term water use (e.g., 5 min) than to total use for the day. If I want to force the issue I need only turn on the washing machine and flush the toilet simultaneously; if I alternate uses and I can do several loads and several flushes.

- also whenever this happens my first warning is the hissing of the drain back valve. In fact, I think the hissing starts before the water tap stops running. is that possible? Does it tell me anything?

thanx again guys

You keep referring to the drain back valve. I don't want to sound smug, but I've never heard of a drain back valve. Can you describe it, so we'll know what it is?

What you must know is that a bladder tank only holds the draw down of a galvanized tank. Which means there is still a lot of water in a galvanized tank after your bladder tank is empty. That water is all usable. The pressure will be getting lower as the tank is emptying but you still have water.

Yes your well guy can install you one. It is heavy and bulky, and isn't easy to move around, so a do it your self might not be too easy.

bob...

tank

Here we have been trying to eliminate galvanized tanks and get people to use "bladder" tanks so they do not have to deal with a waterlogged storage unit, and you are suggesting that he install one. Another pneumatic storage tank, or on extra large one will do the same thing, and will do it consistently for a much longer time than a galvanized one will. If he does use a galvanized tank, at least he should install a Shraeder valve on it so he can restore the air bubble periodically.

I disagree that the larger bladder tank will do the same thing. Since the largest drawdown I can find in a bladder tank is just over 30 gallons.
The reason I recommend this system is it's cheaper than going with a cistern, extra pump, tank, chlorination etc. and easier to install than all the above.

The schrader valve is a good idea, but how many homeowners have air compressors? I assume the guy that installs the tank would install one when necessary.

The only other thing is, where the bladder tank is bought is directly proportional to it's lifetime.

bob...

speedbump said:

I don't want to sound smug, but I've never heard of a drain back valve. Can you describe it, so we'll know what it is?...

bob...

Click to expand...

Certainly possible that (a) I have the wrong name or (b) I misunderstand how it works. But here is what I think I have: (This is a thing needed only in certain situations in freezing climates.) When the pump turns off, the drain back valve opens allowing the water in the pipe to drain back into the well. This is apparently needed for my well because the pipe runs above the frost line. Draining the water back prevents freezing of water in the pipe. [my pipe runs near the surface because (a) in runs over ledge, and (b) the entry point to the basement (crawlspace actually) is above the frost line]

When it opens, the valve makes a distinct hissing noise (presumably air entering the pipe to allow the drainback) ... this sound is especially prominant (loud and long) when I lose all pressure

speedbump said:

The only other thing is, where the bladder tank is bought is directly proportional to it's lifetime.

bob...

Click to expand...

is this just saying that buying from a reputable dealer is important?

The drain back valve is a first for me. Is there some reason why they couldn't bury the pipe deeper. I mean if everytime your pump shut's off the water in the line to the pump drains and fills with air, the air would be knocking the glasses out of your hand in the kitchen all the time. This is a perfect place for the galvanized tank. It could handle the air (as a matter of fact it would love it) and an air release valve (air volume control so I won't be corrected) can let the excess air out.

I really think you need to get some professional help with your system. I don't think the person or persons that hooked it up had a grasp on what was in your best interests.

bob...

speedbump said:

The drain back valve is a first for me. Is there some reason why they couldn't bury the pipe deeper. I mean if everytime your pump shut's off the water in the line to the pump drains and fills with air, the air would be knocking the glasses out of your hand in the kitchen all the time. This is a perfect place for the galvanized tank. It could handle the air (as a matter of fact it would love it) and an air release valve (air volume control so I won't be corrected) can let the excess air out.

bob...

Click to expand...

yes. my house is "built on stone". Many placed around my house (including between the well and the point of entry) the bed rock is a granite ledge located only inches below the surface. Even if they blasted a few feet through the granite, the crawlspace ends whenit hits that same granite ledge (i.e. they would need to blast under my foundation).

and of course the flow of air is from my kitchen to the pipe... i.e., no extra air to push into a galvanized pipe

Bob, in rare cases like his, it's what is done up here in the deep freeze areas. It sounds to me like he's somewhere in VT or NH etc. but it could be PA too. And it sounds to me as if he has a dry well condition with a low producing well to boot. We use low pressure safety cut off switches for them.

Of course his bleed back valve could be leaking. It should be inside the well casing not down too far.

We are quite dry up here we've had the hottest summer ever, well at least since records have been kept and the record had been back in the '50s when I were a kid; I have to call the children! I suggest water conservation.

Gary
Quality Water Associates

Ok Gary,

So in essence she already has an air making system on her well. Which could be used with a galvanized tank to keep it from waterlogging?

Help me out here. If this air check ( I think that is what you meant) in the droppipe is opening and letting the lines drain back to the well, there is a bunch of air going to the house next time the pump cycles on. This is what we do here to keep a galvanized tank from waterlogging. It has been done in lots of places, expecially before the bladder tank became so popular.

My big question is: if this is the case. Why the bladder tank??????? Do they expect them to live with this air spitting problem day after day?
Than makes no sense to me. The galvanized tank with the air release is the answer to all the problems. It could be just me though.

bob...

I take it that the air is vented at the kitchen sink somehow. "and of course the flow of air is from my kitchen to the pipe... i.e., no extra air to push into a galvanized pipe".

I see some of it trapped in the pressure tank, I don't know how the thing is plumbed around here either. Air and iron etc. I've always wondered about the air causing dirty water and possible bacteria problems. Hopefully Woodsdancer will explain how the air is vented.

Gary
Quality Water Associates