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Thread: I do not understand volunteer firefighters in America

  1. #31
    Jack of all trades frenchie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimbo View Post
    Frenchie, be careful of those figures, as they come from the Democrats without explanation.
    I cited my source: those numbers are from the World Health Organization. Not the democrats. I've never seen those numbers in a democrat's speech, or pamphlet, or anything like that. Those numbers are as much of an indictment against the democrats, as the republicans.

    If the dems were interested in actually reforming healthcare for the better, instead of just changing who it is that rips us off, then they might use these numbers... but they don't.

    What I mean is, infant mortality for the VAST majority of the population is much better than indicated. There is a small minority population of people, imigrants, drug addicts, etc. who skew the statistics.
    So what? The same is true for child mortality in Canuckistan & Ye Olde Merry Englande...

    Not that we should not do something to help THOSE people. But the proposed healthcare reform will foist a system NOT NEEDED, at great social cost, on the entire population.
    Considering that you and I already pay MORE than the English or Canadians, in healthcare-related GOVERNMENT spending... and that we still have to pay for private insurance on top of that? I disagree. The system needs fixing. Medical costs in the US have been climbing twice as fast as inflation. It can't last, the way it is now.

    As for the cost of healthcare, that is also skewed. Our health care cost more BECAUSE WE HAVE MORE MONEY.
    Did you miss the "as percent of GDP" numbers, or are you willfully ignoring them? Here they are again:

    total expenditure on health as % of gdp:
    can__10.0
    usa__15.3
    uk___8.4

    We pay more, as a proportion of our wealth; not just in absolute numbers.

    Drug companies spend BILLIONS developing new drugs, and in this country, we pay through the nose for them, BECAUSE WE HAVE THE MONEY....and they are then able to market those drugs throughout the world at much lower costs.

    Trust me on this one.....if you take the PROFIT out of drug research, there will be no drug research.
    Who said we should take the profit out of pharma research? Even Obama cut a side-deal to avoid that.

    I'm not too clear on why we should bear a disproportionate share of the cost, though. The other countries should be chipping in a bit more, you know? We don't make that much more than they do...

    gross national income per capita:

    can__36280
    usa__44070
    uk___33650

    Adding to the costs.....the lawyers. Doctors here must practice defensive medicine....ordering all kinds of expensive and in many cases un-needed tests, because if they don't they will be sued. I have not seen anything in the legislation which addresses tort reform and combatting medicare fraud. Just those two items could save us enough money to provide needed healthcare to all who otherwise don't have it.\
    I agree. But tort reform wouldn't make as big a difference as you might think. Comparing States that have brought in tort reform (before & after, and compared to States that haven't), tort reform would only bring costs down about 5%, at most.

    Still, 5% is 5%, and it's straightforward. It's low-hanging fruit. Any 'reform' that doesn't incorporate tort reform, is clearly not a genuine attempt at fixing the system.


    Medicare fraud... I agree, is a huge problem. Way bigger than anyone credits. Probably a big part of the reason (the main reason?) why we spend so much government money while getting so little back, compared to other developed countries.

    But that one is a much harder nut to crack. You'd need to make some radical changes to the system, and seniors get very nervous when you mess with their medicare. So your opposition, whichever party is not you, gets to play boogieman with the seniors for political points.

    I really wish everyone in Washington would grow the hell up.
    Last edited by frenchie; 11-01-2009 at 12:02 PM.
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  2. #32
    Plumber jimbo's Avatar
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    Your raw numbers are accurate. But you have to study the full context. There are lies, damn lies, and then there are statistics!

    Bottom line, the door is open for anyone who thinks medical care is better in GB or Canada. Unfortunately the door is also open for a lot of people who KNOW that medical care is better here!!!

  3. #33
    Jack of all trades frenchie's Avatar
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    Door's open?

    Canada actually enforces its immigration laws.




    Full context? I've lived in both countries: 30 years there, 12 years here.


    Bottom line... this is one thing they do better than us.

    And there's no logical or reasonable explanation for it - no reason why they should be better than us at administering healthcare.

    None.
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  4. #34

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    If you get a big disease you got a much better prognosis in the US.

  5. #35
    Jack of all trades frenchie's Avatar
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    You're talking about the numbers on 5-year survival for cancer...?

    Not talking about most of Europe, or England, where I agree the difference starts being significant - but Canada? Canada is basically part of the US, on cancer survival stats.

    Overall, you have a 3% better chance of surviving cancer, here, than in Canada. I have a 4% better chance.

    There's WAY more difference between different States, or between different Provinces, within the countries, than between the countries.

    Take 5-year survival rate for breast cancer: there's 20% difference between the best (BC) and worst (NS) Canadian Provinces; about 25% between the best (HI) and worst (NY) American States... less than 5% between the two countries.
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  6. #36

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    Frenchie, trust me, you get cancer, get it here in the states. There are far too many variables of why, to cite.

  7. #37
    Jack of all trades frenchie's Avatar
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    And using 5-year survival is misleading, because we do a lot more screening than Europe - that exaggerates the difference.

    Like Jimbo said, there's lies, damned lies, and statistics.

    You compare USA 5-year survival rates for prostate cancer, for example: 99% in the US, 78% for the UK. You get Rudy Guiliani saying he's really happy he didn't live in England...

    Thing is, a lot of prostate cancers progress slowly, and occur in men over the age of 65 - so they aren't actually life-threatening, in the first place, because you die from a heart attack or something, long before the cancer becomes a real issue.

    We do a lot more screening than the UK, and detect those slow-growing cancers. England doesn't do as much screening, the guy dies (of something else) without ever knowing he had it.

    The honest number to look at, is cancer mortality - which is identical, for both countries, at 25 per 100k men.
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    it smells like......victory......

    do not hit your thumb...
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  8. #38
    Plumber jimbo's Avatar
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    Let's talk about infant mortality: because of the availability of medical care during pregnancy, and the advances in prenatal care, a lot of babies who might otherwise be subject to Darwin's principles, actually make it all the way to birth. Naturally, they are still at risk, and some of them won't survive their first year, or whatever time period that infant mortality is counted. In poorer countries, they don't make it to birth and are not counted as infant mortality.

  9. #39
    Jack of all trades frenchie's Avatar
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    I dunno about that logic, Jim. Poorer countries tend to have higher, not lower, infant mortality rates. It's over 154 in Angola, 157 in Liberia, 159 in Sierra Leone... 29 in Mexico, 26 in Indonesia, 57 in India, 42 in North Korea...


    Leaving out the poor countries, looking at just the three we've been looking at... here's some relevant indicators, give us an idea of the availablity & quality of prenatal care:

    percentage of births attended by skilled personnel (%):
    100 for Canada,
    100 for the US,
    99 for the UK.

    newborns with low birth weight(%):
    6 for Canada,
    8 for the US,
    8 for the UK.

    maternal mortality rate (per 100k):
    7 for Canada,
    11 for the US,
    8 for the UK.


    Gotta go, now, running late...
    Master Plumber Mark:

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    it smells like......victory......

    do not hit your thumb...
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  10. #40
    Plumber jimbo's Avatar
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    I hope everyone has taken this discussion in the good natured manner in which it was intended. No desire to antagonize anyone. I think we all agree that no system is perfect, and for us at least, we are free to do what we want and go where we want.

  11. #41
    Jack of all trades frenchie's Avatar
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    Me too, Jimbo.

    Hope I haven't given the impression, that I'm out to offend anyone.


    I just think that, as Americans, we can do better than what we have right now (and of course, better than what the English or the Canucks have).

    But we need to look at what's actually there, not what we wish was there or what bought&paidfor politicians tell us is there.

    I've spent a lot of time digging, on this, trying to find some actual facts & hard numbers, wading through the lies BOTH sides in Washington spread...

    I'm just trying to share some of what I've found.



    Bottom line, IMHO: both sides are lying to us.

    The system is broken - and this "reform" won't fix it.


    .
    Master Plumber Mark:

    there is nothing better than the
    manly smell of WD 40 in the air
    while banging away on brass with a chisel and hammer...

    it smells like......victory......

    do not hit your thumb...
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  12. #42
    Senior Robin Hood Guy Ian Gills's Avatar
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    Well, I am glad we all agree that volunteer firefighters are not the way to go.

  13. #43
    Jack of all trades frenchie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cookie View Post
    Frenchie, trust me, you get cancer, get it here in the states. There are far too many variables of why, to cite.
    Sorry, I missed your reply, in-between my two posts, only just saw it. Don't want you to think the next post was my answer, or that I was ignoring it. Just missed it, guess you posted while I was typing.


    Not sure what to say to that... except that it depends on the State you live in. I live in New York - we're the bottom of the heap for US survival rates. Close to the bottom for all of North America. Well below some of the Canadian Provinces, like British Columbia for example.

    Still better than some other Canadian Provinces - Nova Scotia might as well be part of England.


    no offence, Ian.
    Master Plumber Mark:

    there is nothing better than the
    manly smell of WD 40 in the air
    while banging away on brass with a chisel and hammer...

    it smells like......victory......

    do not hit your thumb...
    __________________
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  14. #44

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    Their are so many differences too many to number, but one of the biggest are the trials. Those trials are more important than one can imagine. We have access first off to drugs newly, on the market, our waiting time on treatment is much much shorter than other countries, research that is done in our country is really Frenchie one of the best if not the best, they are also, associated with universities that far outweigh most others in other countries; grants that are given for research are huge, very generous, and when you put all of this together, not to fail to mention, the US has the best cancer specialists it spells success. Too many think that the doctors order testing in order not to be sued, if you really know anything about cancer, you would see how much of an error this is. Cancer is a multitude of diseases and the constant testing, CT's every 3 months for a period of time, usually 5 years, MRI's once or twice annually,for years; PET/CTs every 3 or 6 months, blood work done routinely, their are very important reasons for this, medical reasons, in order to give the patient the best possible care so they can continue on living.

    Treating stage one is so different than treating stage 4. Also, how many times the groups were treated. For instance, I have been diagosed and treated 5 times, spending 5 years, 3 months total out of 11 years on chemo. I am afraid to tell you this, but some other countries would had stopped treating me.

    Cancer is a very complexed disease. Their are too many variables to cite here to convince you that the USA is the best place you want to be if you unfortunately, come down with it. New York, Frenchie? You have the best, the very best at your door... those survival rates you cited Frenchie doesn't mean to much, too much is missing to make it worthy. Frenchie, Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center is one of the best in the world.
    Last edited by Cookie; 11-02-2009 at 05:52 PM.

  15. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Gills View Post
    Well, I am glad we all agree that volunteer firefighters are not the way to go.

    I actually agree with you Ian. I would pay higher taxes. It is clearly, one of the most important jobs and it is volunteer, even I don't understand it Ian, and I was born here.

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