(206) 949-5683, Top Rated Plumber, Seattle
Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123
Results 31 to 40 of 40

Thread: 120F not hot enough?

  1. #31
    DIY Senior Member Runs with bison's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Midwest
    Posts
    892

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ballvalve View Post
    The europeans went with front loaders because they wash about 1/4 of clothes as americans, they look like dishwashers and fit usually, under the kitchen counter. Their average kitchen is smaller than our laundry rooms.

    And they use those condensing dry cycles that just do not work. When they get here, they wonder how they ever survived.
    That will be news to my in-laws who live in Europe several months each year and have had the condensing dryers. I quizzed my engineer father-in-law about it several times and he seemed to think it worked just fine as long as you emptied the water out as you were supposed to. (I would like to get my hands on one for some comparison tests...there is a fair chunk of energy that could be conserved in a system that worked.) Of course back in the states they also have a 5+ year old front loader that is still chugging along without problems.

    Consumers reports gives about 7 top load whirlpools and kenmores the energy star and same water efficiency as the Front loaders. Which means they extract about the same amount of water on spin, no matter the speed.
    Water efficiency and energy efficiency of the washer are not the same as extraction efficiency. That is the part of the evaluation missing in the energy star ratings from what I've seen--they've historically ignored the drying part that is the most energy intensive part of washing without a clothes line. That's why I did my own econ, just as I would for a plant project. Plant experience has taught me not to trust others' bases until I've evaluated them myself. But perhaps Consumer Reports did an evaluation of water extraction and drying energy. (I did mine based on an actual differential weight of several similar loads before and after drying in both washers--yep, engineering curiosity.) I haven't tested the 5 speeds on mine, I only use the "extra high" = 1050 rpm setting.

    2100 rpm? sounds like a woodworking router.
    That was what I said when I saw the "double" speed claim.

  2. #32
    General Engineering Contractor ballvalve's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    northfork, california
    Posts
    3,261

    Default

    High-efficiency top-loading washers
    These use a variety of methods to lift and tumble the laundry. They fill only partly, so they use less water, and they spin at higher speeds. They work best with low-foaming, high-efficiency detergent.

    Pros:Some high-efficiency top-loaders hold more laundry than regular top-loaders (up to 20 pounds or more) and they typically wash better. The higher spin speed reduces drying time--and, thus, energy consumption--by extracting more water before clothes go into the dryer.
    Cons:The high-speed spin can tangle and wrinkle clothing. And while prices have dropped, these still cost notably more than regular top-loaders and can cost as much as front-loading machines.
    Front-loading washers

    Front-loading washers These also fill only partly with water. They clean clothes by lifting them to the top of the tub and dropping them back into the water, and work best with low-foaming, high-efficiency detergent.

    Pros:The best front-loaders clean better and more efficiently than the best high-efficiency top-loaders, without necessarily costing more. Most can handle roughly 12- to 20-pound loads. Even faster spin speeds than high-efficiency top-loaders typically mean better moisture extraction in the spin cycle, reducing drying time and energy consumption. As a group, front-loaders tend to be very quiet (as are some top-loaders). Many can be stacked with a dryer to save floor space.
    Cons:A front-loader's high spin speeds might vibrate too much for the machine to be placed near living areas.
    From consumers reports. Some of the new top loaders have no agitator, and thus hold enormous amounts of clothes. That is energy savings that does not get factored into the "energy star" ratings. Which I believe are manufacturer [hah] determined.

    And I dont want my washer in the garage or my Chinese 800$ IC board to be bouncing around.

    THIS is the washer we need: coin op for our beer money and this will keep the wife from washing her 4 favorite pair of panties at a time. Probably would last 40 years.

    http://www.speedqueen.com/vend/en-us...d-washers.aspx
    Last edited by ballvalve; 07-23-2011 at 11:47 AM.

  3. #33
    DIY Senior Member Runs with bison's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Midwest
    Posts
    892

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ballvalve View Post
    From consumers reports. Some of the new top loaders have no agitator, and thus hold enormous amounts of clothes. That is energy savings that does not get factored into the "energy star" ratings.
    Front loaders don't have the agitator either. And can hold the same capacity as HE top loaders from what I can see on the Energy Star list of actual volumes. And of course in both cases you pay for that extra capacity. It is far more than we would want for most loads, which would make the larger capacity (with more water and energy use with every load) inefficent for us.

    And I dont want my washer in the garage or my Chinese 800$ IC board to be bouncing around.
    Good, then you will be happy with a basic front loader. Mine is in the utility room just like it's predecessor and would have worked in every home I've ever resided in. Since it can sense out of balance (unlike even some of the HE top-loaders) there is no need to worry about the board vibrating...like you have to worry about top loaders potentially tearing the hoses from the wall when they decide to take a walk.

  4. #34
    General Engineering Contractor ballvalve's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    northfork, california
    Posts
    3,261

    Default

    When your back gets old and tired, and some other obscure diseases start to take over life, lifting clothes into a front loader becomes a chore not needed.

    That top loader flush with the folding table means granma can do her own thing for an extra 10 years, perhaps. Thats worth a hundred energy stars.

    I would go for the commercial coin op and NOW you have an energy star that really works, and money for that trip to hawaii.

    The new top loaders without an agitator should not walk, as they are built horizontially, as a centrifuge can only be made.

  5. #35
    DIY Senior Member Runs with bison's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Midwest
    Posts
    892

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ballvalve View Post
    The new top loaders without an agitator should not walk, as they are built horizontially, as a centrifuge can only be made.
    Well, one of those HE top-loaders I was reading about the reviewer complained about the machine having that very problem and it not having a sensor to shut it down when that happened. Out of balance is going to be an issue with any centrifuge. There is a large shaped concrete block inside of my front loader near the top to dampen the vertical component of any out of balance as I understand it.

    I haven't designed or worked on centrifuges but I don't see why a horizontal wouldn't work. (Indeed I can locate vendors selling them for industrial applications.) Horizontal makes sense for a batch wash application like this where one wants to minimize water volumes.

  6. #36
    General Engineering Contractor ballvalve's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    northfork, california
    Posts
    3,261

    Default

    Funny how reviews of the same item go from love of my life to piece of dog crap.

    For about 2$ every washer ever made should have a shut down for vibration. Ask any pinball machine.

    Trouble is, with a front loader how does one figue out the issue? With a top loader, you can see the arrangement and deduce the problem.

    My main point is user friendliness of top loading, and simpler components.

    This rig is a true USA hybrid, but I hear that quality may be dropping off. Lots of Euro mini models of this design. Its also designed to be user serviceable, so they say.

    http://www.staber.com/
    Last edited by ballvalve; 07-25-2011 at 10:35 AM.

  7. #37
    DIY Senior Member Runs with bison's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Midwest
    Posts
    892

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ballvalve View Post
    Funny how reviews of the same item go from love of my life to piece of dog crap.
    Amen to that. Takes awhile sifting through them to find common problems and sort out the clueless reviewers from the handy ones. And some times you notice a problem occurred in early production of a model, but disappeared later. Or a problem shows up after a few years.

    For about 2$ every washer ever made should have a shut down for vibration. Ask any pinball machine.

    Trouble is, with a front loader how does one figue out the issue?
    It might be just a sensor but I think it is detecting load or rpm variation in the motor as it spins or something like that. If a load is way out of balance it won't gin up even from low speeds. You can hear the motor load changing considerably through a rotation when it is unbalanced. It detects the problem after holding at a speed for a few rotations, halts the gin up, stops, does a few very slow rotations the other way, stops and reverses a few times trying to redistribute the load and drain water, then makes another go of spinning up. If unsuccessful it will try this numerous times before halting and giving an "unbalanced" error message. If it is nearly balanced, it will go up to higher speeds before it gets stuck in this loop. Sometimes these loads will finish if the balance issue is caused by something in the load that holds a lot of water and needs time to shed it. But the simple solution is just to open the hatch and redistribute the load, then continue the cycle. After a few times you get the hang of loading it for the wash cycle so that big items don't end up in lumps off to one side during the spin. It's easier to balance this than dealing with imbalance from the old agitator type--because sheets/blankets/covers are the main offenders in both types and they can be a bear to get out from the agitator.

    They are sensitive to being well leveled though. And I wouldn't put one on a weak floor that wasn't rigid. That would invite unwanted vibration.

  8. #38
    General Engineering Contractor ballvalve's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    northfork, california
    Posts
    3,261

    Default

    What amazes me about my Kenmore top loader is that it can run out of balance, bang into the dryer like someone is there with a sledge hammer, and the damn thing does'nt break. I can imagine when no one is home, the whole cycle runs in hammer mode.

    I suppose once that sweater looses its water, the hammer subsides. I would not load a unit with one heavy cotton blanket and 50 pairs of nylon underwear. But a lot of women have the brains of fleas in the laundry room. Top, front, or bottom load.

    From about 12 to 16 years of age, our drycleaning and tailor shop [started 1916] taught me a bit about clothes. And steam piping [and I am afraid unwanted knowledge of asbestos] ..... Gramps from europe and my great-great uncle's sewed mens suits all day and smoked camels as fast as they would burn. Would cost you 10,000$ today. Mean as bulldogs and lived to be 95 easy years.

    My parents and some workers ran the delightful cleaning portion, with the old style solvent which was [luckily] very close to paint thinner and kerosene. I think the machines, very much like todays washers except 10 feet long, were 40 years old and never repaired except for shear pins on the extractors. They had diatomaceous earth filters, and of course extraction was essential to stay in business. We drew straws to decide who cleaned the filters.

    What most people dont know is that most clothes went into the bank of speed queen standard washers with seperate extractors, because crap and normal dirt didnt come out in the kerosene. I would avoid dry cleaners like the plague with the new solvents.

    The first guy that puts a backwash filter on his washer will get the 10 star energy rating for water saving.
    Last edited by ballvalve; 07-26-2011 at 11:18 AM.

  9. #39
    DIY Senior Member Runs with bison's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Midwest
    Posts
    892

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ballvalve View Post
    What amazes me about my Kenmore top loader is that it can run out of balance, bang into the dryer like someone is there with a sledge hammer, and the damn thing does'nt break. I can imagine when no one is home, the whole cycle runs in hammer mode.
    I wondered if that was what broke the original transmission on my Whirlpool way back when. I don't recall that preceding the failure and the warranty guy acted as if this was a common problem on them at the time, but I still wonder.

    We've had a standing rule for 20 years not to leave home with a wash load running (same rule with stuff in the oven/on burners.) I've had to wrestle with the homocidal banging top loader enough that I never eased this restriction.

  10. #40
    General Engineering Contractor ballvalve's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    northfork, california
    Posts
    3,261

    Default

    So the ultimate beauty of a top loader is if you leave the lid open, it wont spin, and you can go shopping. Or away for the day.

    Clothes get a great and needed soak..... I wouldnt try it with a front loader.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •