Water Heater as Radiant Slab Heat Source

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JonfromCB

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I've been using a 50 Gallon gas Bradford White as the heat source
for my slab floor for the last 5 years. The heater just died so
I called BW technical who were surprised it lasted 4 seasons
running a glycaol/antifreeze mix through it. They made two
intersting comments to me....1st was that for my application
they recommend their Single Wall, "coil" type heater.
And 2nd, the old heater might have lasted for years had
it not been running glycol/antifreeze in it.

Comments/recommendations please. I live in Iowa and don't
see the need for the antifreeze in my system. Comments/recommendations
please?
 

Jadnashua

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Well, if the heater died (power outage?) for a long time in the winter, it would make a major mess if the lines or the heater froze, so that's a consideration. Another consideration is that while the antifreeze does two things: lower the freezing point and raise the boiling point, it does decrease the liquid's ability to transfer the heat by (I think in the order of) 10%. This means you need a bigger system when running antifreeze to extract that heat into the structure than you would with the (wetter) water without.

A typical WH isn't designed for near 100% duty that might be called for during an extended cold snap. The one thing going for you is that (assuming it is a closed system), by not constantly introducing oxygen from the fresh water to the thing, corrosion internally should be lower and the anode should last much longer.

A good boiler is more efficient that the typical WH and should last much longer, so there's a tradeoff on that as well.
 

Dana

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There's no positives to putting glycol in it unless it's some place that's used intermittently and would likely freeze up. There are many radiant space heating apps in NewEngland being driven by tank & tankless HW heaters. Tank heaters should go 15+ years in closed-loop heating apps- longer than in domestic hot water situations since it's not being constantly infused with corrosive fresh, oxygenated water. Keeping it it pressurized at ~10psi or above is sufficient to keep oxygen from infusing via the PEX.

A cast-iron boiler sized perfectly for the load is only modestly more efficient than a tank heater. The raw combustion efficiency of a standard HW heater is ~78-80%, compared to an atmospheric drafted cast-iron boiler's, ~82-84%, and extra plumbing is required in low-temp applications like radiant to protect the boiler & chimney from condensation and thermal shock, whereas the HW heater is just fine with 70F return water. In low & very-low heating load situations it can be hard to rationalize going with a standard cast iron boiler, let alone a 90%+ efficient condensing boiler at more than 5x the up front cost.

A cast iron boiler 3x oversized for the peak load will be LESS efficient than a hot water heater.

The size of the tank is fairly irrelevant in a slab-radiant system- the thermal mass of the slab itself is more than sufficient buffering. The size of the burner IS. Look up the burner rating of the one that died, and guesstimate backwards. If the think was running 6+ hour burn times on the coldest day of the year it's probably slightly undersized for the heat load. If it was never more than an hour or so, with at most a 50% duty cycle it's probably somewhat oversized, but not so much so that it's fallen off an efficiency cliff. If it runs well-over 50% duty cycle on really cold mornings, but keep up, you're golden.

If you have good fuel use and heating degree day data to correlate it with it's possible to calculate the heat load to a high degree of accuracy, but that may not be important here. If the old one kept up, a new one with a simliar sized burner will too. But if it was a 60KBTU burner and you could get a cheaper smaller tank with a 40KBTU burner that would handle the load as-efficiently or more, smaller is generally better, delivering more efficient spring/fall part-load performance.

If you're willing to pay a little bit more for efficiency, a direct-vent hot water heater (that takes it's combustion air from outdoors, eg: AO Smith ProMax GDV series) is typically good for at least 5% fuel savings in a heating application, in which case you'll have beat an atmospheric drafted cast iron boiler on as-used performance. (I considered one of these for heating my place, but went with a more expensive direct-vent tankless as a boiler, with an indirect-fired HW heater as a system buffer. I don't have the thermal mass or low heating water temps of a radiant slab- you'll likely get better performance out of it than I would have.)

The worst efficiency you'll ever get out of is during the fall/spring seasons, where it might fall down to 70% (which is about where your 83% AFUE cast iron would be getting under those conditions) but unless you keep it hot all the time in the late spring/early fall "just in case" you might need a bit of heat, it'll beat it's EF numbers by double-digit percentages. (A 0.60EF heater will deliver at least mid-70s under any real space heating load.) The best efficiency you'll ever get out of it is just below it's raw combustion-efficiency, typically ~80%.
 

hj

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heater

The three biggest differences between a water heater and a boiler are;
1. The btu input of a boiler will usually be higher than a water heater, and
2. The boiler normally have more contact area beteen the flue gases and the water, and they will be tighter to force better heat transfer. A water heater has a single round flue which has limited contact with the volume of water. And,
3. The volume of water compared to the heat transfer are is much smaller with a boiler since its primary function is NOT to store the water after it is heated like a water heater has to.
 

Doherty Plumbing

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Another major difference is that HWTs aren't designed to be "controlled". IE they aren't designed to be turned on and off with electrical signals. You set them at a temp and basically tell them to stay there.

I'd recommend a small boiler controlled by a boiler controller with an outdoor sensor. This way you can ramp your water temps up and down based on the out door temperature.

These systems aren't necessarily cheap but they're pretty efficient.
 

Dana

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Another major difference is that HWTs aren't designed to be "controlled". IE they aren't designed to be turned on and off with electrical signals. You set them at a temp and basically tell them to stay there.

I'd recommend a small boiler controlled by a boiler controller with an outdoor sensor. This way you can ramp your water temps up and down based on the out door temperature.


These systems aren't necessarily cheap but they're pretty efficient.

Whether the total savings of outdoor reset control would ever be recouped in a low heat load situation requires a sharp pencil and good analysis. A condensing boiler would likely save him on the order of 20-25%% in fuel with or without the outdoor reset control. Outdoor reset is a crude model of heat load best-cast, but it is a downright CRAPPY way to control a slab, due to the substantial time lag on the thermal mass involved. Proportional-integral-differential algorithm thermostats and a fixed temp do a much better job of it. An oversized burner for the load makes slab overshoots even greater when using outdoor reset control. Even the tiniest mod-cons only go down to about 15KBTU or so, which could exceed the design-day heat load. (It's over half mine!) But the anticipation built into PID keeps undershoots under control as well.

Still, if you're only spending $500/year or less in fuel, the rationale for spending three grand extra for high efficiency systems to save the $100-125/year or less kinda evaporates.

If you're spending $2000+/year in fuel and could save $400-500/year the math gets a lot easier. In between, it's in-between.

Most tank HW heaters have burners that are capable of handling the design-day heat load on my 3 bedroom house in central MA with a ~7000 heating degree-day climate. In tighter smaller spaces in milder climates they can do it with margin to spare. It's not crazy to go this route if your radiation can deliver design-day heat with sub-130F water, which is usually the case for slabs in reasonably insulated homes. Many states have regulations precluding the use of a hot water heater solely for space heating, but allow it for combined heating & domestic hot water. If running space-heating-only and don't need the 120F+ for DHW, heating the slab with cooler water buys you slightly better efficiency & lower standby loss.

As much as we tend to love 'em, high efficiency boilers aren't the ideal solution for every hydronic heating application, even when they're ideal for maxing out the efficiency, as would be the case with slabs. Low loads, intermittent use, etc. call for something cheap up-front, and sometimes that's a dumb low-efficiency HW heater with a zone pump or two and a smart thermostat controlling the relay(s).
 
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