(206) 949-5683, Top Rated Plumber, Seattle
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 18

Thread: Thermostatic mixer/diverter/flow valve.

  1. #1
    DIY Member piperca's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    California
    Posts
    66

    Default Thermostatic mixer/diverter/flow valve.

    I am installing a fixed shower head and a hand shower unit in my new shower. I know I will need a 3 port diverter to switch between the two. If I use a thermostatic or pressure balance mixer, like the Hansgrohe Axor Carlton, do I need a flow valve, also? I really like the look of these single-handled units!

    Mixer:

    Diverter:

    Flow:
    Last edited by Terry; 05-31-2013 at 11:06 AM.

  2. #2
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer jadnashua's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    New England
    Posts
    21,434

    Default

    Some separate the temperature control from volume control. Assuming this does, then yes, you need a volume control to shut water off.
    Jim DeBruycker
    Important note - I'm not a pro
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer; Schluter 2.5-day Workshop Completed 2013, 2014

  3. #3
    In the Trades EuroPlumber's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    North America
    Posts
    34

    Default Flow valve for Hansgrohe Axor Carlton

    Hansgrohe offers several solutions to your question.

    The thermostatic valve you want to use mixes the water only, so you need flow control also. For a showerhead and handshower setup you can use the Thermo valve with their Triostop diverter which allows you to control flow, divert to either, or share both on at the same time. Then you only have two handles to deal with.

    The second solution is to use a volume control valve for the shower head, and a Fix Fit wall outlet for the handshower. The Fix Fit outlet controls flow for the hand shower. The nice thing is that if you are putting the handshower near a bench (the ladies like this for shaving) you will have the flow control at the hand shower in easy reach of the seated bather.

  4. #4

    Default

    I have been researching the same question and I can tell you what I learned so far. I am not a plumber so verify what I think... EuroPlumber gives some great information.

    Hansgrohe also does make the Thermobalance III valve. This is a temperature valve and a diverter in one. This will let you switch between the shower and handshower or use both together.

    I do not understand how much volume control is available on the Hansgrohe Thermobalance III valve. I called the Hansgrohe technical support line and they told me it would also control volume. Call me a skeptic but I am not sure if I believe them. That is not what I have been reading in some other forums from actual users. I am still looking into that.

    Delta makes a 17T series valve that will control volume and temperature. They also make a 3 way 6 position diverter you can use for multiple devices. Volume would be controlled off the main control but then it would affect every shower head equally.

    The simplest solution seems to be a Thermostatic valve with individual volume controls. However, a stand alone Thermostatic valve seems to be about twice the cost of one of the combination valves (like the Thermobalance III).

  5. #5
    In the Trades EuroPlumber's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    North America
    Posts
    34

    Default

    Carlton is in the AXOR range of products. This is Hansgrohe's Lexus brand. The ThermoBalance line of valves is the Toyota version Hansgrohe line. Both are dependable, but AXOR has more performance and style.

    ThermoBalance III is capable of running 3 items, controlling flow on port 1&2, but not on port 3. Piperca said he only wanted to run 2 items in his shower so I will explain how he can do it with ThermoBalance.

    ThermoBalance II can run two items, but you cannot run them both at the same time. The valve lets you set the desired temperature and control volume to each outlet by turning the handle either clockwise or counter clockwise from the off position. All of this is controlled on one knob and lever combo handle. Basically two handles on one valve stem. Sounds impossible, but it works great.

    Thermobalance III can be used for two features but you have an extra outlet. The unused outlet should not be capped or plugged or it can damage the ceramic valving. So the way to pipe it is to run the bottom outlet 1 up and tee into outlet 2 riser that feeds the shower head. Outlet 3 pipes to the hand shower. This setup allows the shower head or the handshower run together or seperate. There will be an ability to control volume to the shower head and to bias the handle in the shared position giving either the hand shower or the shower head more pressure and the other less pressure. But the handshower must be full on when it is running solo.

    You could share both and get volume control on either if you piped outlet 1 and tee into outlet 3 riser, but you will get cross flow through the valve until it is trimmed out. This is okay for new construction, but crossflow on a remodel can be a hazard.

  6. #6
    DIY Member piperca's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    California
    Posts
    66

    Default

    Thanks for the responses.

    For simplicity we decided to go with the Thermobalance II. We haven't used it yet, since I am still working on the tile, but hope that it suits our needs. The wife likes the handshower and I'm not fussy. I liked the look of the Axor stuff, but, in the end, I couldn't justify the price.

  7. #7
    Moderator & Master Plumber hj's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    Posts
    25,679

    Default

    Be sure the device you choose for diverter purposes will do what you want to. You cannot use a valve with the conventional diverter for a hand held and shower. It only works for a tub or shower selection option.

  8. #8
    In the Trades EuroPlumber's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    North America
    Posts
    34

    Default

    The thermobalance 2 valve will work fine with a handshower. Not sure what HJ means unless he is refering to a diverter tub spout. Because a handshower can be positioned at variable height, it could be that a diverter spout will allow water to back up and out of the handshower when filling the tub.

    The ThermoBalance II has positive diversion and will not allow water to pass to the unselected outlet.

  9. #9
    DIY Junior Member miramax's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    ct
    Posts
    1

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EuroPlumber View Post
    You could share both and get volume control on either if you piped outlet 1 and tee into outlet 3 riser, but you will get cross flow through the valve until it is trimmed out. This is okay for new construction, but crossflow on a remodel can be a hazard.
    To EuroPlumber or anyone who knows the answer -
    We would be using Thermobalance III to run two items (overhead and handheld showers) and would like to have the capability of volume control for both by piping the valve as you have mentioned. Can you explain why cross flow on new construction is okay but might not be on a remodel? We will be doing new construction, btw.

    Oh and just to be clear about this, outlet 1 should be teed into outlet 3 (instead of outlet 2), right?

    Thanks in advance.
    Last edited by miramax; 09-19-2012 at 04:39 PM.

  10. #10
    ACO Shower Drain Sales johnfrwhipple's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    North Vancouver, BC
    Posts
    2,993
    Blog Entries
    5

    Default Options for shower controls - AXXOR

    I personally don't like the fixtures that have so many options. Many allow you to control for example a Rain Head and a Hand Held - one or the other and sometimes both.

    Standing under a Rain Head pumping water out full blast is not so nice as a gentle drizzle. Have separate flow valves give you this option.


    If you can not control the flow rate of the rain head you may not use it that much....

    My thoughts.



    Here you see the AXXOR set up with two flow valves and one Thermostatic Control that holds the hand held.



    A gentle stream of water from the Rain Head. This can be set really so it barely flows and is nice in a steam shower to turn on to cool off.



    Or crank it full blast to wash your hair!

    JW
    Last edited by johnfrwhipple; 09-19-2012 at 07:32 PM.


    jfrwhipple@gmail.com - www-no-curb.com - 604 506 6792

    Always get construction advice double checked by your local city hall. Flood Test Every Shower - Every Time.

  11. #11
    Moderator & Master Plumber hj's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    Posts
    25,679

    Default

    IF you need both a volume control and a diverter for two items, it would be more sensible to just use a volume control for each one individually and eliminate the diverter. That way, you can turn on the device you wish to use with one handle instead of turning on the flow with the volume valven and then selecting the item with the diverter.
    Licensed residential and commercial plumber

  12. #12
    ACO Shower Drain Sales johnfrwhipple's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    North Vancouver, BC
    Posts
    2,993
    Blog Entries
    5

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by hj View Post
    IF you need both a volume control and a diverter for two items, it would be more sensible to just use a volume control for each one individually and eliminate the diverter. That way, you can turn on the device you wish to use with one handle instead of turning on the flow with the volume valven and then selecting the item with the diverter.
    HJ We have just that scenerio rough'd in downtown right now. We are waterproofing the shower walls and have left the Octopus of piping open so I can monitor all four flow values and the thermostatic control in a running water test.

    The client asked me to install rubber washers behind every fixture. I have not seen this done before ever but Dornbracht actually includes the washers in the package. To make life a little easier I'm going to use a scrap of Noble SIS on the plywood backer board and then wafer head screws and washers on the top side.

    This is to be done to reduce any vibration noise the fixtures could make while running....

    JW


    jfrwhipple@gmail.com - www-no-curb.com - 604 506 6792

    Always get construction advice double checked by your local city hall. Flood Test Every Shower - Every Time.

  13. #13
    In the Trades EuroPlumber's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    North America
    Posts
    34

    Default

    Sorry to post so late on this. I should check in more often. I wouldn't use the thermobalance III for a shower head/handshower application normally, but I understand you may want to be able to run both at the same time and the Thermobalance II will not do that. Secondly the Thermobalance is discontinued for a few years now and service parts are only maintained for 10-15 years. After that other companies like Danco will sometimes make an aftermarket part but not on that valve because it is very complex.

    I would strongly suggest using iBox with 2 function volume control integrated. This valve is miles ahead of the Thermobalance and only slightly more expensive. This valve can run seperate functions or both together if you remove the handle limit ring.

    Dornbracht makes a really neat valve with all functions on one plate, but it controls one function at a time but never runs both at one time. Cal Green will not allow multiple shower heads to run at one time. If you are under such restriction the Dornbracht IMO 35426970-900010 and trim 36426670-FF0010 gives you thermostatic control and volume + diversion on two knobs The escutchion is rectangular and only 5-7/8" tall by 3-1/2" wide.

    In full disclosure, I have worked for Hansgrohe and currently work for Dornbracht. There are many brands and solutions out there. No matter what product you choose, make it one that will be around for a while. You are putting this into your walls and if you use cheap plumbing that does not have a repair part in 5 years, you may find yourself tearing out expensive tile.

    Again, please forgive my tardiness.

    Phil
    Dornbracht America's Inc. 1-800-774-1181

  14. #14
    ACO Shower Drain Sales johnfrwhipple's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    North Vancouver, BC
    Posts
    2,993
    Blog Entries
    5

    Default

    Hey Europlumber.

    Does any other company make a waterproofing system like the Dornbracht. IE the way the flashing pieces are designed to tie into the tile mud rings. I have yet to find anything as good as the Dornbracht rough ins.

    It is really such a simple design I'm surprised we don't see more of it by other makers.

    JW



    One Dornbracht thermostatic control valve and 5 flow valves. All of which are tied into the bathtubs waterproofing system.
    Last edited by Terry; 05-31-2013 at 11:05 AM.


    jfrwhipple@gmail.com - www-no-curb.com - 604 506 6792

    Always get construction advice double checked by your local city hall. Flood Test Every Shower - Every Time.

  15. #15
    Moderator & Master Plumber hj's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    Posts
    25,679

    Default

    Does that system come with an "operator's manual" or wall diagram, so the user knows which valve to turn on for his device, or is it trial and error, (and be ready to duck a cold shot of water)?
    Licensed residential and commercial plumber

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •