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Thread: kinetico Woes

  1. #16
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy CWS View Post
    Well, it's much more involved than that. With Kinetico, that is not true. 0.2 cuft of anion resin are in addition to the regular amount of resins to handle your tannin levels (up to 4ppm). There are other compensations that are required. Please consult your dealer on how these changes are actuated or contact me and I can get that info--which is both pertinent and accurate--to you.

    Andy Christensen, CWS-II
    Yeah they are using larger tanks to be able to add the .2 cuft (WOW, .2 cuft!) )when they assemble this used equipment, and you know it. Otherwise they must remove an equal amount of softening resin so it will all fit the existing tanks or they are reducing the freeboard space in the tanks.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cookie View Post
    What some people do not realize is if you have rain water running off into your basement that is potentially full of insectides if your neighbor or yourself get your lawn treated.

    We have that problem in our neighborhood, one of my neighbor's, he is a patholgist, has a son who has Non Hodgkins lymphoma. Since moved. On our side of the road when it rained hard enough it ran from our neighbor's yard area into our basements. He had the water and residue tested and it showed high content of insecticides. Most our neighbor's used a Chem lawn service.

    The township would repave the road making it higher and higher and eventually created this problem.

    I live in an area which is one of 2 clusters in the US for Non Hodgkins Lymphoma, the other one is Manchester, New Hampshire.
    So was the chem lawn poeple responsable for the sons cancer? I have never heard of anything like that, but if its true the lawn care companies should stop doing treating lawns. Did the guy that posted the porblem have insectaside in his well? That would really suck. I wonder if water treatment filters will take it out?

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy CWS View Post
    Sorry, Gary, you are not accurate and that is understandable. No on both assumptions above. They are not using larger tanks... Do not remove cation resins.

    Can you explain your assumptions with data, spec sheets, technical manuals, factory guidelines, warranties? Or do I simply rely on your often repeated résumé? Can you tell the salt dosage, number of gallons between regens, salt efficiencies, etc.? I am basing my statements on technical details and on a proven system. I guess I dont need to wonder why Kinetico warranties it to remove tannins up to 4ppm.

    Of course other conditions need to be understood. For example at what point (%) of alkalinity do alterations have to made, Gary? And what would those alterations need to be? What would be the maximum recommended iron for this unit, Gary? Is using a salt with iron cleansers recommended, Gary? If so, at what iron level? What special start up procedures are needed after installation, Gary? What is a TA Plus brine drum and when would it be recommended, Gary? What hardware would be added to the brine tank when special conditions exist and what would these conditions be, Gary?

    In all fairness, though, the valve also will need to be adjusted in its gearing to accommodate the change in media and this would include backwashing, salt brine draw and other paramater changes. A qualified person understands this and can make those adjustments.
    The fact that these have been engineered, tested and in the field for more than 30 years leads me to believe they work as well as the ones I have been involved with, Gary.

    The MACH 2060s Tannin Plus works and is proven.
    Andy Christensen, CWS-II

    I'll offer no more on this topic here.
    There a few things more ignorant than an educated man professing a topic of which he knows little.
    ________________________________________
    Wow, I am glad I just solder pipes and glue pvc togeather. that all seems like way too much work. BTW thanks to you and biermech an nhmaster for the advise on my filter. Put in a Fleck and so far it works real good.

  4. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Griffin View Post
    So was the chem lawn poeple responsable for the sons cancer? I have never heard of anything like that, but if its true the lawn care companies should stop doing treating lawns. Did the guy that posted the porblem have insectaside in his well? That would really suck. I wonder if water treatment filters will take it out?
    Hi Peter,

    I bet in 10 years you won't see lawn care services using anything other than safe products. The workers theirselves aren't safe in using them ( I have studies on it) The road is still higher than it was and should be. It comes down to this Peter, am I my brother's keeper. Even I went to the neighbor's asking them to stop using certain chemicals and most will comply, some won't. I read the link, and it hit home here (cancer clusters) and people should be aware of things that maybe, they will overlook because they weren't confronted with it; it is really sad, when a family member gets sick to then, learn some facts. Just a suggestion to anyone who gets rainwater in their downstairs or basements, to have it checked. The chemicals stay in the soil a long long time. When the residue dries you are breathing it, so always hose it out, not just sweeping away the water, did it cause his cancer? The probability is high. Can it get into your well, yes.
    Last edited by Cookie; 10-07-2009 at 09:02 PM.

  5. #20
    Computer Programmer ctamblin's Avatar
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    Hopefully this thread helps other homeowners who lack this knowledge like me.

    I don’t have the paperwork of what was put into it in front of me but there was something on it about tannin resin and new (different) float for the brine tank.

    In the past with full chlorine and a second manual refresh of the water softener I would have for about 2 days the same quality of water I have now with a HIGH dosage of salt. What I would notice in the past was that the more I used the water for laundry and dishes the harder the water would get until the timer reset.

    This is the 3rd day since Kinetico installed the rebuilt softener and I have to say ( though I wouldn’t drink it ) the water is as clean as I have seen it with a lot less salt in it. Although I have not put it through its paces with heavy (for me anyway) water usage I am impressed as I actually have water flow and pressure in my shower.

    At this point I simply have a sediment filter, carbon filter and the softener between the Pressure tank and my shower head.

    When I get a chance I will post what the info from the actual work order.

    I digress ….
    Reading the prior post I have to wonder how much difference it actually makes if there is .2 cu/ft less softening resin in the tanks when they (dual) refresh on demand not when a timer says they should. AS YOU KNOW I am not knowledgeable in this area but, it would seem that it may need to refresh 20% more often. Since it is a demand 2 tank softener system that refreshes with clean water, wouldn’t it use the same amount of salt?

    Since I wouldn’t notice the refresh do I care?

    For the added expense of getting larger tanks and a larger system what would I actually get out of it? Would my water be better because the tanks were bigger?

  6. #21
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctamblin View Post
    Hopefully this thread helps other homeowners who lack this knowledge like me.

    I don’t have the paperwork of what was put into it in front of me but there was something on it about tannin resin and new (different) float for the brine tank.

    In the past with full chlorine and a second manual refresh of the water softener I would have for about 2 days the same quality of water I have now with a HIGH dosage of salt. What I would notice in the past was that the more I used the water for laundry and dishes the harder the water would get until the timer reset.

    This is the 3rd day since Kinetico installed the rebuilt softener and I have to say ( though I wouldn’t drink it ) the water is as clean as I have seen it with a lot less salt in it. Although I have not put it through its paces with heavy (for me anyway) water usage I am impressed as I actually have water flow and pressure in my shower.

    At this point I simply have a sediment filter, carbon filter and the softener between the Pressure tank and my shower head.

    When I get a chance I will post what the info from the actual work order.

    I digress ….
    Reading the prior post I have to wonder how much difference it actually makes if there is .2 cu/ft less softening resin in the tanks when they (dual) refresh on demand not when a timer says they should. AS YOU KNOW I am not knowledgeable in this area but, it would seem that it may need to refresh 20% more often. Since it is a demand 2 tank softener system that refreshes with clean water, wouldn’t it use the same amount of salt?

    Since I wouldn’t notice the refresh do I care?

    For the added expense of getting larger tanks and a larger system what would I actually get out of it? Would my water be better because the tanks were bigger?
    Let's recap. You had a softener and added a pellet chlorinator in front of it without any retention or a carbon filter to remove chlorine.

    That softener was probably undersized for your needs.

    The chlorine ruined the resin and probably clumped it up which reduced your water flow through it.

    Next to no one sells day clock timer type control valves anymore, they are all demand initiated regenerated (DIR) metered type control valves.

    You then became the proud owner of a used Kinetico water softener (Rolls Royce you say) and installed it backwards and the water quality wasn't acceptable and you called Kinetico out and they said the chlorine supposedly ruined the Kinetico control valve.

    The chlorine also ruined your resin.

    So in attempting to get it serviced they told you it was ruined and they would provide, read sell you, another softener, a refurbished softener containing .2cuft of anion tannin resin in addition to the cation softener resin, which now you have it installed and you have used it less than a week and are totally satisfied saying it is the best your water has ever been.

    And you are totally convinced it is because the softener is a Kinetico.

    I disagree because all that Kinetico makes is the control valve. They don't make the resin or the tanks. A control valve only regenerates the resin, which is where all the water quality improvement is done; in the resin bed.

    Is it true that this refurbished softener has bigger, taller wider, tanks and/or more tanks, a filter tank on top of a resin tank, than the first used one you inherited and installed backwards had?

    I think so but if they aren't, then to add .2cuft of tannin resin they either removed .2cuft of softening resin or decreased the freeboard space. There is no other way to do it. Removing .2 cuft would reduce the capacity potential by like 10+ K.

    I say the new tanks are larger and possibly sized to provide space to add a top dressing, if not they removed .2 cuft of softening resin or decreased the freeboard space. Freeboard space is the water filled space above the top of the resin bed.

    Anyway, any refurbished and correctly installed softener would give you improved water quality. It does not matter what brand of control valve, brand of resin or type of softener (cation) resin as long as some tannin resin was added to new softener resin.

    It also does not matter that the softener is a twin tank or regular two tank or cabinet model. Or what salt efficiency you get, which all softeners have an adjustable K of capacity and salt dose so they can be programmed to use the same number of lbs of salt per cuft of the same type of resin as any other brand of softener; like Kinetico.

    IMO they are treating you like a mushroom (feeding ya BS and keeping you in the dark) while making you think they are great and their softener is the best when they only make the control valve! And I agree with you that they could have fixed (they call it refurbishing) your old one. AND, I'll bet they took the old for you, am I right?

    So... how many lbs of salt does this softener use per regeneration?

    How many regenerations per day or how many days between regenerations?

    Andy can answer both those questions, see if he will tell you.

    To learn about all this sizing stuff Click Here.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  7. #22
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nhmaster View Post
    We all tend to get familiar and comfortable with what we sell and what is in the area. Kinetico is pretty rare around here. I have only had to work on one and that was just an electrical problem.
    Did you assemble your own softeners or buy them assembled?

    An electrical problem on a water powered nonelectric Kinetico... If you actually did, it wasn't a Kinetico.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

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