Questions on Goulds 5GS pump

I'm attempting to put together a water supply system on my remote, off-the-grid property. Here's a sketch of what I have & would like to have:

<> a 100' artesian well that the driller found to have 15GPM flow rate (w/ the drill still at 100').

<> The water has moderately high Iron & Manganese and i'm planning on using a Filox filter

<> The well pump will need to lift from 60' down the well casing up to the top of a 2500 G storage tank that's 110' above the wellhead for a total lift of 170'. The tank is 1000' to the east so obviously there will be friction loses in the plumbing.

<> The storage tank will feed the (temporary) home - which is at wellhead level - by gravity feed. (Later on it will feed the not-yet-built permanent home which is much closer to the storage tank)

Because:
(a) I'm off-the-grid i'd like to have an energy-efficient pump. I don't need high GPM from the well pump because the storage tank outlet plumbing determines the delivery flow rate of the system. I currently use *very* little water - approx 10 -15 gal per day. (Yes, I know i'll start to waste water like normal Americans once I don't have to lug it by hand anymore)

(b) I think the performance of the Filox filter will be improved if I slow the flow through the filter to something closer to 1 GPM. (service flow rate spec is 3 GPM) The filter will be located close to the wellhead and the outlet of the filter will go uphill to the storage tank.

I was given a used Goulds 5GS10412 pump that has a dead Franklin 1HP, 230V motor. It appears that I can replace the dead motor w/ a new 1/2HP, 115V for less than $250. I took the Goulds pump apart and everything looks fine.

Ok, (at long last) here's my questions:

(1) The Goulds pump cylinder housing threads appear to have a gray residue on them which I assume is some sort of thread sealer. What should I use on the threads when I put this back together?

(2) The pump currently has way more flow & pressure than I need. (according to the current Goulds specs at 170' of head it can flow 7GPM w/ a 1/2 HP motor) Can I take the impellers out of say 1/2 of the stages and get enough flow to keep the motor cool (ie: 1 1/2 GPM) and reduce the current draw of the motor while still being able to lift 170'? Or is there a better way to do what I want to do?

Tom

You can’t put a 1 HP pump end on a ½ HP motor without removing ½ of the impellers in the stack. Then you would need to make spacers to put in place of the removed impellers. Probably just best to get a complete ½ HP pump and motor. At 170', a ½ HP, 5 GPM pump will want to produce about 7 GPM. You can remove about ½ of the impellers from the ½ HP pump end if you can figure out how to make the spacers. Or you can just use a ball valve or Dole valve to restrict the pump to 1-3 GPM as required. Gallons produced for kilowatts supplied would be better to let the ½ HP pump 7 GPM. You might need a larger filter but, it would fill the storage tank faster and get off your batteries sooner.

laffin_boy said:

I'm attempting to put together a water supply system on my remote, off-the-grid property. Here's a sketch of what I have & would like to have:

<> a 100' artesian well that the driller found to have 15GPM flow rate (w/ the drill still at 100').

<> The water has moderately high Iron & Manganese and i'm planning on using a Filox filter

<> The well pump will need to lift from 60' down the well casing up to the top of a 2500 G storage tank that's 110' above the wellhead for a total lift of 170'. The tank is 1000' to the east so obviously there will be friction loses in the plumbing.

<> The storage tank will feed the (temporary) home - which is at wellhead level - by gravity feed. (Later on it will feed the not-yet-built permanent home which is much closer to the storage tank)

Click to expand...

It seems as if you aren't calculating in the friction loss of the 1000' of pipe. And depending on the ID and type of pipe, it can be substantial. I suggest at least 1.25" and you may have to go to 1.5" or 2" depending on what material you use.

Maybe I'm not 'seeing' the set up/design just right but...

Your filter will not be able to backwash unless the pump runs during backwash, unless you run water lines back to/from the filter from/to the cistern; a loop. And I wouldn't run 2000' of extra water line, or want to have a large enough pump, off grid, the size it would take to do that.

Also, all water treatment equipment is already flow controlled (for backwashing, not service flow), and a Filox filter, depending on the cuft size, will require like 7-10 gpm for successful backwashing. Or it will die quickly and you might as well not have the filter.

I would not suggest Filox, it is way too heavy (I just looked up Filox and see 57 lbs/.5 cuft) for the water system you are designing; unless the pump runs while it is backwashed, and then, it needs at least 40 psi minimum pressure and the 7-20 gpm. And BTW, I live off grid with solar panels and batteries.

You should look into my inline erosion pellet chlorination system. No moving parts no electric required. It can be used before or after the cistern.

IMO you don't know yet what size, gpm and hp, pump that you need.

For not wanting to use much water, even later when you don't have to haul it, why a 2500 gal cistern?

Are you planning it to allow the cleaning and sanitizing they require? Also, you may want to treat after the cistern instead of before it because it is hard to impossible to backwash or regenerate a filter before a cistern.

Thanks for replying VM.

valveman said:

You can remove about ½ of the impellers from the ½ HP pump end if you can figure out how to make the spacers. Or you can just use a ball valve or Dole valve to restrict the pump to 1-3 GPM as required.

Click to expand...

A Dole Valve! Didn't know there was such a thing! Thanks for that tip.

valveman said:

Gallons produced for kilowatts supplied would be better to let the ½ HP pump 7 GPM. You might need a larger filter but, it would fill the storage tank faster and get off your batteries sooner.

Click to expand...

Ah, *that's* the info I was looking for. Is there a pump performance chart that you're aware that shows the relationship between flow, pressure and current draw?

Tom

Thanks for replying.

Gary Slusser said:

It seems as if you aren't calculating in the friction loss of the 1000' of pipe. And depending on the ID and type of pipe, it can be substantial. I suggest at least 1.25" and you may have to go to 1.5" or 2" depending on what material you use.

Click to expand...

The plan at this point is 1 1/4" or 1 1/2" sched 40 PVC for the 600' between the well and the proposed house site and then 2" for the 400' from there to the storage tank. (2" allows firefighting hose @ house)

Gary Slusser said:

I would not suggest Filox, it is way too heavy ...for the water system you are designing; unless the pump runs while it is backwashed, and then, it needs at least 40 psi minimum pressure and the 7-20 gpm.

Click to expand...

The real problem w/ this well is the combination of Iron & Manganese. They have somewhat different requirements as far as ionization goes. This is further complicated by my refusal to use any regeneration / oxidation / backwash chemicals - salts, chlorine, potassium permaganate, etc. Won't do it. After researching this for 2 weeks the Filox (or Catalox) system appears to be the only commercial system that should do the job.

<> My goal is to get the Iron & Manganese out of the water as soon as possible before it fouls the storage tank, etc. Plus I have 110v right by the wellhead so this location makes the most sense to me.

<> The system specs allow backflushing w/ raw water so I need to figure out a way to bypass the 1.5 GPM Dole valve that will feed the inlet to the Filox tank (to slow down the flow through the tank & increase the contact time) w/ an unrestricted flow from the pump. A bypass w/ a solenoid valve? I don't have a clear understanding of the control valve operation yet so I have to look into this more.

<> I'll use either the small 1/2 or 3/4 cu ft tank which calls for a backwash rate of 5.5 GPM which the Goulds pump can easily handle w/ a 1/2 HP motor.

Gary Slusser said:

For not wanting to use much water, even later when you don't have to haul it, why a 2500 gal cistern?

Click to expand...

This is forest fire country. Everyone here has 1 or 2 or 3 of these on their nearest hill. Also If I build the house here then there'll be a garden and lots more water usage. The tank is already in place as is the well. Everything else is in the planning stage.

Gary Slusser said:

Are you planning it to allow the cleaning and sanitizing they require? Also, you may want to treat after the cistern instead of before it because it is hard to impossible to backwash or regenerate a filter before a cistern.

Click to expand...

Unfortunately the cheap tanks that everyone buys here - inc me - have no cleanout drain nor an access cover large enough to climb through. Which is why I want to get the Iron & Manganese gone before the storage tank.

Gary Slusser said:

You should look into my inline erosion pellet chlorination system. No moving parts no electric required. It can be used before or after the cistern.

Click to expand...

That sounds like an excellent way to go if I were willing to use chlorine.

Tom

laffin_boy said:

The plan at this point is 1 1/4" or 1 1/2" sched 40 PVC for the 600' between the well and the proposed house site and then 2" for the 400' from there to the storage tank. (2" allows firefighting hose @ house)

Click to expand...

I suggest one continuous piece of 160 psi rated PE pipe from the well to the tank and the same to hang the pump on. Much less friction loss and time and effort to install it, and it expands/contracts on its own with no planning on your part because it zigzags in the trench as you unroll it along side and into the trench. And it is much less expensive and only requires two fittings. It also comes in rolls up to 1000' up to 2" and I'd use it from the tank for the fire fighting too.

laffin_boy said:

The real problem w/ this well is the combination of Iron & Manganese. They have somewhat different requirements as far as ionization goes. This is further complicated by my refusal to use any regeneration / oxidation / backwash chemicals - salts, chlorine, potassium permaganate, etc. Won't do it. After researching this for 2 weeks the Filox (or Catalox) system appears to be the only commercial system that should do the job.

<> My goal is to get the Iron & Manganese out of the water as soon as possible before it fouls the storage tank, etc. Plus I have 110v right by the wellhead so this location makes the most sense to me.

Click to expand...

Ionization? You must oxidize iron and manganese with oxygen (air), chlorine, ozone, hydrogen peroxide etc. or use an oxidizing mineral and then you clarify the water by mechanically filtering out the particulate matter that causes, and the chlorine if used.

laffin_boy said:

<> The system specs allow backflushing w/ raw water so I need to figure out a way to bypass the 1.5 GPM Dole valve that will feed the inlet to the Filox tank (to slow down the flow through the tank & increase the contact time) w/ an unrestricted flow from the pump. A bypass w/ a solenoid valve? I don't have a clear understanding of the control valve operation yet so I have to look into this more.

<> I'll use either the small 1/2 or 3/4 cu ft tank which calls for a backwash rate of 5.5 GPM which the Goulds pump can easily handle w/ a 1/2 HP motor.

Click to expand...

How much iron and manganese is in the water?

IMO what you are wanting to do, a 1.5 gpm service flow and using a 1/2 or 3/4 cuft filter has little chance of working for more than a few days. The filter will probably suffer from channelization and that prevents it from removing any iron or manganese. The only cure for channeling of the bed is a backwash.

This idea of limiting the output of the well pump to like 1.5 gpm is going to cause the pump to run for hours on end; 67 minutes/100 gallons of water if it was done at the well with no pressure loss, IIRC the tank is 400' away and you want to use sch 40, and at best 20' sections which requires a coupler every 20'. So you won't be getting 1.5 gpm into the tank if you flow control @ 1.5 gpm at the well. You'll be lucky to get any water into the tank. And then you want to oxidize iron and manganese with the 1.5 gpm flow through what I'm thinking is a way undersized filter, which means the filter will reduce the flow rate to the tank.

And then when you build the house, you say; then there'll be a garden and lots more water usage. So IMO you will need to refill the tank with more than 1.5 gpm or the pump will be running for maybe 10-20 hours a day etc.. And you expect the filter to remove all the iron and manganese. IMO you are going to need a much larger filter but as yet I don't know how much iron and manganese you have. And all this only to keep rust out of the tank...

Also, storing 2000+ gals of water makes it funky (bacteria, algae, slime), especially if the water is warmed by baking the tank, or ground on top of it, in the sun as it will be if you're in a non freeze area as I expect you are. You will undoubtedly need water treatment after the tank. And IMO, it is unwise to not use the proper tools for the job (as an example chlorine) because of fear I guess. That allows you to treat the water once so you reduce the amount of equipment and get the job done right.

IMO any water treatment should be done after the tank, and that is how I've done it in the past, one is a 5500 gal cistern.

How much iron and manganese and what else have you had the water tested for?

Thanks for punching holes in my plan. I'd much rather learn what not to do here than after i've already bought the system.

Gary Slusser said:

I suggest one continuous piece of 160 psi rated PE pipe from the well to the tank and the same to hang the pump on. Much less friction loss and time and effort to install it, and it expands/contracts on its own with no planning on your part because it zigzags in the trench as you unroll it along side and into the trench.

Click to expand...

Another DUH moment. Makes much more sense than PVC pipe. Thanks.

Gary Slusser said:

And it is much less expensive and only requires two fittings. It also comes in rolls up to 1000' up to 2" and I'd use it from the tank for the fire fighting too.

Click to expand...

The $ checking I did suggests that it's about 50% more than sched 40, not counting fittings, etc. ( $1 / ft for 1 1/2" x 100') But even so counting the ease of install and the reduced friction loss it's worth it to me.

Gary Slusser said:

This idea of limiting the output of the well pump to like 1.5 gpm is going to cause the pump to run for hours on end; 67 minutes/100 gallons of water....

Click to expand...

Remember that at this point i'm using 80 gal / WEEK which, once the storage tank is filled, is about 15 min / day of pump time at 1.5 GPM. Now it's true that IF the house goes in there'll be a garden w/ irrigation and much more water usage. And, ideally, i'd build a system that wouldn't have to be upgraded when the house gets built. But, to complicate things further, the house plans are only a possibility at this point. When I lay pipe in the ground i'll plumb for the house but for the Filox system i'm going to spec it for what exists today.

Gary Slusser said:

IMO you are going to need a much larger filter but as yet I don't know how much iron and manganese you have. And all this only to keep rust out of the tank...

Click to expand...

No this isn't a rust problem. It's actually a manganese problem w/ a little iron thrown in. If it were just iron I could get rid of it by aeration & settling and wouldn't need a filter. To significantly reduce manganese just from an oxidant - ie: w/o an oxidizing media - it wants to see a ph above 9.0 and mine is currently 6.3. Here's the readings from my water test:

Iron...........0.831 mg/L - 2.7 x the EPA secondary level
Manganese......0.500 mg/L - 10 x the EPA secondary level
hardness.........130 mg/L - officially "hard"
ph....................6.3

I realize that the Fe & Mn #'s aren't huge and IF I was willing to use a large, salt-based water softener and backflush it more than normal I might be able to kill 2 birds w/ 1 stone but i'm not willing to dump that amount of salt here.

Gary Slusser said:

Also, storing 2000+ gals of water makes it funky (bacteria, algae, slime), especially if the water is warmed by baking the tank, or ground on top of it, in the sun as it will be if you're in a non freeze area as I expect you are.

Click to expand...

I'm at 2800' in N Cal. Hot in the summer and cold w/ snow in the winter. Tank, fortunately, is in the shade.

Gary Slusser said:

You will undoubtedly need water treatment after the tank.

Click to expand...

Yes i'm sure that you're right. Considering all the factors i'm juggling here i'm leaning towards using a ceramic under-sink filter for drinking water in my temporary quarters.

Gary Slusser said:

And IMO, it is unwise to not use the proper tools for the job (as an example chlorine) because of fear I guess.

Click to expand...

You & I will have to agree to disagree about this.

Tom