Self-grounding receptacle

dhla · Sep 16, 2009

I have a question about a self-grounding receptacle.

I have found the exact product I wish to install... it is a specialized receptacle and one of the features is that it is self-grounding.

My understanding, which may be faulty, is that instead of connecting the ground wire in the traditional manner, I need to ground to the receptacle box itself. Presumably, the box needs to be metal?

What happens if the box is one of the blue remodel boxes? How do I deal with a self-grounding receptacle in that situation?

There is no option to use a different type of receptacle. The only one with the other features I want happens to be self-grounding.

Any advice appreciated. Thanks!

ActionDave · Sep 16, 2009

dhla said:
I have found the exact product I wish to install... it is a specialized receptacle and one of the features is that it is self-grounding.
What happens if the box is one of the blue remodel boxes?
How do I deal with a self-grounding receptacle in that situation?

You loose the ability to self ground.
Hook up the wires the same as any three wire recpt.

What are these features you want other than extra cost?

Sponsor · 2022-01-29T12:20:58-0800

dhla · Sep 17, 2009

It's a surge protecting receptacle that is wired like a GFCI. It's a long story, but the "next" outlet in line is a clock-outlet used for a flat screen, and given that the receptacle is both tamper resistant and has line/load, it should provide some form of surge protection to the next receptacle in line, namely the clock outlet. In addition, I put a whole-house surge protector on the panel, so I should be in good shape. The model is Leviton T5280.

So I can still hook up the "normal" ground and all will be well??

If so, thank you for the confirmation.

Jadnashua · Sep 17, 2009

If the recepticle has a ground screw, use it. If it doesn't, then you need a metal box, connect the ground to the box and ensure that the screws used to mount the device are tight to the box. Seems to me a self-grounding recepticle is mostly a joke - it is a secondary connection at best. A GFCI doesn't need a ground, but most surge suppressors are severely compromised if they don't have that connection. A good surge suppressor limits spikes between hot-neutral, neutral-ground, and hot-ground. WIthout the ground, they often can't bleed off that current and won't perform their stated function. If the TV has a 3-pronged plug, you may void the warranty if it doesn't have a true ground. From a safety standpoint (not equipment life), using a GFCI to supply an ungrounded outlet is okay. Some devices really need the ground, though.

dhla · Sep 17, 2009

There is a ground wire right now to the "regular" receptacle. There is a ground screw on the self-grounding receptacle. But box is a blue plastic box. So wanted to know if I pigtail the ground to the ground screw, am I ok that this surge receptacle will be in a blue box?

Scuba_Dave · Sep 17, 2009

I use a small UPS/surge on my LCD TV
It was almost free after rebate/sale, less $$ then the Levitron
Of course that won't work if its mounted on a wall

Just use the ground screw

Jadnashua · Sep 17, 2009

You can use a pigtail to extend the ground that is in the cable to the device. A plastic box does no good if you ground it nor does it provide a ground for a self-grounding device. But, assuming your supply has a ground lead, you should run it to the devices installed in the box, either indirectly through a metal box, or directly with either.

ActionDave · Sep 17, 2009

dhla said:
It's a surge protecting receptacle that is wired like a GFCI. It's a long story, but the "next" outlet in line is a clock-outlet used for a flat screen, and given that the receptacle is both tamper resistant and has line/load, it should provide some form of surge protection to the next receptacle in line, namely the clock outlet. In addition, I put a whole-house surge protector on the panel, so I should be in good shape. The model is Leviton T5280.

So I can still hook up the "normal" ground and all will be well??

If so, thank you for the confirmation.

I see what your getting at. Yes, if you hook this device up properly it will function.
There is no need for a metal box.

Furd · Sep 18, 2009

The only difference between a "self-grounding" receptacle an one that isn't self-grounding is a little piece of spring wire that is secured to the frame (yoke) of the receptacle and presses against the mounting screw. Use the ground screw on the receptacle.

Curiousv · May 3, 2022

jadnashua said:
If the recepticle has a ground screw, use it. If it doesn't, then you need a metal box, connect the ground to the box and ensure that the screws used to mount the device are tight to the box. Seems to me a self-grounding recepticle is mostly a joke - it is a secondary connection at best. A GFCI doesn't need a ground, but most surge suppressors are severely compromised if they don't have that connection. A good surge suppressor limits spikes between hot-neutral, neutral-ground, and hot-ground. WIthout the ground, they often can't bleed off that current and won't perform their stated function. If the TV has a 3-pronged plug, you may void the warranty if it doesn't have a true ground. From a safety standpoint (not equipment life), using a GFCI to supply an ungrounded outlet is okay. Some devices really need the ground, though.

@jadnashua Sorry to barge in to thread but I have relevant question.
House has a old cable that has no ground wire in it ..
We have added GFCI outlet in the system but what about protection between panel and GFCI outlet ..as I understand that GFCI will protection only downstream and upstream (before GFCI )

I think one light fixture is before GFCI - should I be worried and double check?

Afjes · May 3, 2022

I would not worry too much about that light between the first GFCI receptacle and the panel. The GFCI is mainly for personal safety (from Ground Faults) since the circuit does not have a ground. You would be putting your hand against a receptacle way before putting your hand against a light on the ceiling. The GFCIs will still function as they should even without a ground wire.

You can purchase a GFCI breaker for your panel. Make sure it is the proper one for your panel. Then you can remove all of the other GFCIs on that circuit if you would like to since you now protect the entire circuit with the GFCI breaker. You can use those GFCI receptacles in other areas of the house since many receptacles probably do not have grounds either. No need to have GFCI receptacles on a circuit that is already being protected by a GFCI breaker. There is no added protection in doing this.

But in your case if it was me I would just leave it as is. The GFCIs will do their jobs for you in the way of personal safety.

Oups - sorry moderators. I didn't realize this thread is 13 years old. My bad.

Curiousv · May 3, 2022

Afjes said:
I would not worry too much about that light between the first GFCI receptacle and the panel. The GFCI is mainly for personal safety (from Ground Faults) since the circuit does not have a ground. You would be putting your hand against a receptacle way before putting your hand against a light on the ceiling. The GFCIs will still function as they should even without a ground wire.

You can purchase a GFCI breaker for your panel. Make sure it is the proper one for your panel. Then you can remove all of the other GFCIs on that circuit if you would like to since you now protect the entire circuit with the GFCI breaker. You can use those GFCI receptacles in other areas of the house since many receptacles probably do not have grounds either. No need to have GFCI receptacles on a circuit that is already being protected by a GFCI breaker. There is no added protection in doing this.

But in your case if it was me I would just leave it as is. The GFCIs will do their jobs for you in the way of personal safety.

Oups - sorry moderators. I didn't realize this thread is 13 years old. My bad.

What do you mean when u said - You would be putting your hand against a receptacle way before putting your hand against a light on the ceiling. ' are u saying I will touch that GFCI outlet more frequently than ceiling light?

Also I read somewhere ...GFCI breaker is not effective compared GFCI outlet

wwhitney · May 3, 2022

curiousv said:
Also I read somewhere ...GFCI breaker is not effective compared GFCI outlet

False.

Wayne

Reach4 · May 3, 2022

Breakers may also contain AFCI protection in addition to GFCI, so in that case it could be better.

Curiousv · May 3, 2022

wwhitney said:
False.

Wayne

Thanks for confirming its false.. I can go ahead and have a GFCI breaker installed

Jadnashua · May 3, 2022

Anything electronic can fail and that is one reason why all GFCI devices have a test switch that most people never use. It is the only safe way (other than a dedicated test device) to verify that a GFCI is still working. Some have a status light, but you still should hit the test button once in awhile to verify it trips which proves it is working.

Afjes · May 3, 2022

curiousv said:
What do you mean when u said - You would be putting your hand against a receptacle way before putting your hand against a light on the ceiling. ' are u saying I will touch that gfci outlet more frequently than ceiling light?

Also I read somewhere ...GFCI breaker is not effective compared GFCI outlet

Yes, basically that is what I meant by that in respect to personal safety protection from electrocution which the GFCI really is and why it is approved as a replacement for an ungrounded receptacle.

In theory a GFCI receptacle is as safe as a GFCI breaker however (and vise-versa) , a GFCI breaker will protect the entire circuit from the panel to the last device on the circuit. If you use a regular breaker and only use a GFCI receptacle you are only protecting that receptacle (if you wire load side also) then that receptacle and downline to the last device. With a GFCI breaker you are protecting the entire circuit from the panel to the last device. Sometimes a GFCI receptacle is more convenient depending on the GFCI breaker location. If a receptacle in your kitchen or bathroom causes the GFCI breaker on its circuit to trip then you have to go to the panel to reset it. If your panel is in the basement that may not be convenient so a GFCI in your bathroom would be better and then you would use a regular breaker.

You can use a GFCI breaker or receptacle on an ungrounded circuit but a plug in tester will not trip it. You will need to use the "test" button on the GFCI breaker or receptacle to test its functionality.

As mentioned adding AFCI (Arc fault circuit interruption safety) to the circuit does also protect the circuit if it tends to arc for any reasons.

If you choose to use a GFCI breaker be sure there are no GFCI receptacles on that circuit. There is no need for that type of receptacle now and it may even cause the circuit to trip (false tripping) which can be a pain. Some home owners use only GFCI receptacles if they have a very old breaker panel and it is very difficult for them to find the proper brand GFCI breaker for their panel.

Whether you have GFCI receptacles or breakers you should really test them monthly or at least as often as you remember to just to be on the safe side.

Curiousv · May 4, 2022

Afjes said:
Yes, basically that is what I meant by that in respect to personal safety protection from electrocution which the GFCI really is and why it is approved as a replacement for an ungrounded receptacle.

In theory a GFCI receptacle is as safe as a GFCI breaker however (and vise-versa) , a GFCI breaker will protect the entire circuit from the panel to the last device on the circuit. If you use a regular breaker and only use a GFCI receptacle you are only protecting that receptacle (if you wire load side also) then that receptacle and downline to the last device. With a GFCI breaker you are protecting the entire circuit from the panel to the last device. Sometimes a GFCI receptacle is more convenient depending on the GFCI breaker location. If a receptacle in your kitchen or bathroom causes the GFCI breaker on its circuit to trip then you have to go to the panel to reset it. If your panel is in the basement that may not be convenient so a GFCI in your bathroom would be better and then you would use a regular breaker.

You can use a GFCI breaker or receptacle on an ungrounded circuit but a plug in tester will not trip it. You will need to use the "test" button on the GFCI breaker or receptacle to test its functionality.

As mentioned adding AFCI (Arc fault circuit interruption safety) to the circuit does also protect the circuit if it tends to arc for any reasons.

If you choose to use a GFCI breaker be sure there are no GFCI receptacles on that circuit. There is no need for that type of receptacle now and it may even cause the circuit to trip (false tripping) which can be a pain. Some home owners use only GFCI receptacles if they have a very old breaker panel and it is very difficult for them to find the proper brand GFCI breaker for their panel.

Whether you have GFCI receptacles or breakers you should really test them monthly or at least as often as you remember to just to be on the safe side.

Thanks for explanation and time u took for it.
One confusion - should I prefer to use afci and will afci also protection against ground fault?

wwhitney · May 4, 2022

curiousv said:
will afci also protection against ground fault?

AFCI alone does not provide personnel-level ground fault protection (GFCI). Some AFCIs do sense ground faults and trip, but that does not replace a GFCI. Breakers can provide both AFCI and GFCI functionality; those are called "dual function" breakers. Not to be confused with "combination AFCI" breakers; all modern AFCI breakers are combination AFCI breakers (two different types of supposed arc fault sensing), so the word combination is often omitted.

Cheers, Wayne

Jadnashua · May 4, 2022

An AFCI helps prevent a fire, and thus, the building, but indirectly maybe you if you're in it.

A GFCI protects the person from being electrocuted with a defective device.

A plain breaker protects the wiring from an overload and potentially burning the building down. Some devices have their own breaker or fuse that should protect the device from an overcurrent, but it may or may not save the device.

All three are useful safety items, and can be found in one device to make installation easier.

Self-grounding receptacle

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