A.O. Smith water heater

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We've had this discussion with "Logical" Engineers before...

The world will revolve fine just as long as we go to the poorhouse while installing their junk designs.:D

I'll take a logical engineer over an illogical variant of plumber. ;)

I have no problem giving folks a reasonable payment for what they have in something. But I won't pay you many multiples of an engineer's hourly rate. I'm fair, but I don't care for folks that sound too much like used car salesmen.

Reminds me of a kid who wanted the equivalent of $50/hr for mowing a lawn while I was away on overseas assignment. :D It was more than I was making at the time. No thanks, you/he priced yourself out of the market. If you can't stay out of the poorhouse on what I pay, then you need to find another line of work. ;)
 

Redwood

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I'll take a logical engineer over an illogical variant of plumber. ;)

I have no problem giving folks a reasonable payment for what they have in something. But I won't pay you many multiples of an engineer's hourly rate. I'm fair, but I don't care for folks that sound too much like used car salesmen.

Reminds me of a kid who wanted the equivalent of $50/hr for mowing a lawn while I was away on overseas assignment. :D It was more than I was making at the time. No thanks, you/he priced yourself out of the market. If you can't stay out of the poorhouse on what I pay, then you need to find another line of work. ;)

Well then why don't you check out the going rate for a professional like Doctor or, #Engineer to make a house call...:eek:

Lotsa Luck!

You have to remember...
Us plumber fix what Engineers screw up!
 
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Jadnashua

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Unless you are self-employed, your hourly pay is only a small portion of what your employer has to be paid for your work...it must be enough to cover things like insurance, worker's comp (another insurance), FICA, overhead for things like the trucks, tools, training, accounting, secretaries, the office, warehouse, materials, etc. So, comparing what an engineer makes verses what his work commands on the economy is way off. Some fairly typical rates are 125% of what the employee takes home. While I don't like paying it, and do as much as I can in the time available and within the local codes, I do pay pros to do things either I can't or when I need it done faster. It is what it is.
 

Redwoodvotesoften1

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I'll take a logical engineer over an illogical variant of plumber. ;)

I have no problem giving folks a reasonable payment for what they have in something. But I won't pay you many multiples of an engineer's hourly rate. I'm fair, but I don't care for folks that sound too much like used car salesmen.

Boy ya jus don git it do ya.
Some time ago I wuz gittin bad advice from an enginear who jes happend ta be my cuzin.

Ol Redwood got me squared up no time attol.

Turnz out my enginear cuzzin had bilt his out house on top of the well.
We figurd that hiz drinkin water musta dun gone to hiz head.
 

NHmaster

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If I had a nickle for every time I have had to deny approval to an engineers set of plans I would be a very rich man indeed. Unfortunately, the city does not allow us to charge for stupid. :D The problem with most engineers is that they have an insulated point of view that has little to nothing to do with the real world.
 

Redwood

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Bison Hunting anyone?

bison-falling.jpg


:cool:
 
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dargo

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dargo,

There are reasons that an average utility space will gather more lint/dust. (I'm ignoring an impoperly vented dryer because that is a dryer problem.) The primary reasons are the presence of fired water heaters and fired furnaces/boilers, as well as the dryer. All suck substantial volumes of air through the room. An additional source of problems is the typically poorly sealed HVAC unit and ducts. The monkeys who installed ductwork/HVAC units in prior years often left huge gaps so that a considerable amount of air recycles in the room.

Going to sealed combustion systems will reduce a large amount of the airflow through the utility room. Of course, that option really only arises when you replace a unit. However, if the utility room is internal this will reduce air infiltration into the home, so it has considerable benefit.

Sealing HVAC ductwork/gaps will improve efficiency and comfort (better distribution at the ends of the trunk) while also reducing the amount of dust in the utility space. The impact I've seen in the utility space is very substantial. I've measured a several fold reduction in differential temperature in heating and cooling season in the utility space, as well as noting much less dust accumulation.

Even so, the dryer will still pull in air from the room while operating. However, this can be minimized by using a front loading washer or other with a very high speed spin that removes more of the water. This and using dryer moisture sensors will reduce drying time, and therefore the amount of air throughput in the room. Cuts your utility bill too.

One can also reduce the air volume through the utility space by better sealing/insulating the home (reduces total furnace run time), by reducing hot water use (reduces water heater burner firing.) Hot water use can be minimized by adding insulation to hot water piping, using lower flow showerheads, front loading washers, and adding insulation jackets to fired water heaters that have less than about 2" of foam insulation.

All FVIR screens are going to work as lint filters, unfortunately. Placement and size can reduce the magnitude of the problem. Those with the FVIR screen on the bottom appear to have smaller and less well placed openings.

GE's have the same FVIR layout as the Bradford Whites from what I can tell. The controls may differ however. The Unitrol Robert Shaw valves appear to be an Achilles heel on many units of both FVIR designs.


Okay I will buy that and a great post!!!

For me, with another new AO smith tank, old one was old I have never had issues. The new 50 gal DV tank is cold external so no insulation is needed, I have the fastest whirpool washer (1200 rpms) steam drier, house is 2x6 and well insulated (need to watch that for TOO much tightness), 1.75 GPM heads and house 100K BTU furance now (thank to me) uses outside are to burn).

Granted this AO smith is VERY easy to fix but fail to see how its filter screen has issues? Am I so clean, well off I do not see it? I know the Power Vent uses ALOT of CFM but that is not integral to burner usuage.

For me, I look at the screen what I do the other monthly deals on the dishwasher, washer, etc
 

dargo

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You have to remember...
Us plumber fix what Engineers screw up!

Do not point the blame on the Eng here, could have been directed from the bean counters too! :)
 
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dargo

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If I had a nickle for every time I have had to deny approval to an engineers set of plans I would be a very rich man indeed. Unfortunately, the city does not allow us to charge for stupid. :D The problem with most engineers is that they have an insulated point of view that has little to nothing to do with the real world.

Okay but ask them why? They might have a good reason..Nevermind, I see your location..
 
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Redwood

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You see Burger Bits & Dargo...

We spoke of engineers being in their own narrow minded little world and how they often miss the marks...:rolleyes:

If the engineers at american, state, smith and all the other Mensa Challenged manufacturers feel like having a flame arresting air inlet on the bottom of the water heater with a surface area about 1/4 of the bottom area acting like a vacuum cleaner while Bradford White has their arrestor almost the full area of the bottom with the air feeding in from the sides of the water heater then power to them... I'm sure as their sales fall and Bradford Whites sales grow the engineers and bean counters at american, state, smith and all the other Mensa Challenged manufacturers can sit around and figure who is most important in the layoffs...

This is the vacuum cleaner inlet I'm Talking about!

redwood-06.jpg


This is a picture of a water heater as it would typically sit on a pan which is required to catch water from a leaking water heater. Note this is not an installation of mine but is just a picture that I have. I'm curious how the flame arrestor on the bottom of this water heater can be cleaned? I can't imagine it being a task I would want to hit every month...

redwood-07.jpg


You'd have to be some kind of engineer to miss the logic in this post.:cool:
 
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Redwoodvotesoften1

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Damn You guys are fun to watch goin after them enginears.
Them injuns sure knew hoe ta hunt them buffalos.
Jes stampede the critters offa cliff an pick up the meat an furs on the bottom. :D

Talk about dum animals!
Kinda reminds me of enginears.
 
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Redwood and his buddies are really groping with the personal attacks. This engineer generally is stuck fixing what the plumber screwed up. ;) Fixing other engineers' screw ups is nothing new to me either. :rolleyes: I did have to call a plumber once for a mistake I made.

Y'all are falling prey to the typical problem of tradesmen, failing to recognize the areas where you lack the education to fully understand what you are talking about. And it's apparent you've got chips on your shoulders about it. You get maybe 90% of it right, but the parts you are missing are critical ones. (It's unfortunate that Redwood doesn't follow his own sig.) I default to you folks on general plumbing fabrication and many of the things you have observed, but some of your explanations of "why" are sorely lacking from a technical standpoint. And your advice with respect to economics is really atrocious.

As to the flame arrestor, I've had no problem seeing the flaws in it, so you can stuff that strawman where the sun doesn't shine. An obvious flaw in a design doesn't explain everything else. Amateur troubleshooters get suckered by the most obvious things and can't seem to see past them. Even with the arrestor's flaws, the arguments you folks make about it being behind the problems are USUALLY WRONG. That much is obvious when folks describe a clean screen (most of the Whirlpools TC/gas valve situations.)

I've had excellent results as a troubleshooter and a key to that it not locking in on the first thing I see; instead trying to take it all in and adjust based on observations of others. A problem is often something more subtle or a combination of things. Being a good troubleshooter doesn't require a degree or trades training, but it does require an open mind. When asking maintenance men, mechanics, operators, technicians and shift supervisors for their take on a problem or piece of equipment I focus mostly on the details of what they've observed, not their theories about why it happens. When the answer is found it generally provides a good explanation for all of their observations but it rarely matches the explanations they gave.

As for hourly rates...I've noted that in any given profession the quality of the work is often inversely proportional to the rate they are charging. Those focused on making a quick buck rarely provide the best service. Those trying to hide their cost basis generally are trying to rip you off. Some of the best plumbing work I've had done was by far the least expensive (so much so that I wonder how they made anything off of their typical call.) I had a dentist who was the least expensive in town (less than half as much as his closest competition), and did better work. He was upfront about his rates. He was an ex-engineer (I had read some of his technical reports for a plant I did staff work on and they were first rate) who left the field to become a dentist. Seemed pretty odd that he did so and I wondered how he made money with his low rates...yet he retired early, leaving me without a dentist.

As to Redwood's comments about State etc.: there is a good chance he is wide of the mark. I suspect there might be some sort of intellectual property or other contractual restriction on where they put their FVIR. Perhaps they've locked into a bad location for the screen, but when I've come across quirks like this before there has often been some sort of non-engineering reason for it. Since there appear to be only two teams working on these type of water heater designs for the US market (BW/GE/Rheem and State/AO Smith/Whirlpool) features are probably limited to a line by who adopts them an registers the intellectual propery first.

When you clowns get tired of the personal attacks and explanations of how you are smarter than any engineer, and instead want to discuss quantifiable things, let me know.
 

dargo

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How many times are you going to post the same lines and pixs???????? Again, as I stated why is it the water tanks fault since it seems the drier (in your issue) was installed incorrectly or the water tank was installed in the incorrect location (aka read the manual).
I have NEVER had my filter EVER get that dirty as Redwood posted on. Let along the filter shown is not even mine (on my PV smith tank). And the pix with the tank looks like the area is not the cleanest.

The CFM this tank needs to so small I have yet to see how this happens. Maybe people homes are dirty, poor installs etc? Or many DID NOT READ THE MANUAL!!!!!!

Agian people think these units, furances are use and forget. People are lazy if this happens in my eyes.

Lastly, certain posters resort to nailing engineers. Maybe just maybe it again is not their fault. Maybe it is requirements driving it, management, mfg etc. I am not saying AO smith has the best intake but I fail to see why it is the units faults or the engineers.
So far, since I am new to this place, Runs with bison is nailing it head on!
 
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Thatguy

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Do not point the blame on the Eng here, could have been directed from the bean counters too! :)

Or they could have been engineers biding their time until they become managers.
It's the engineering equivalent of political appointees - if they screw up, others get blamed; if others do well, the appointee gets the credit.

Bison Hunting anyone?

:cool:

That middle one looks like my ex-wife.


BTW, one thing that I've noticed about engineers and others is their interpretation of observed events, and that seems to hold up for this thread.
 
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Master Plumber Mark

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Please Enlighten me...

Runs with bison; As to the flame arrestor said:
Bravo, bravo... so well stated

so well articulated.... yet so full of crap...


you state that you see the obvious flaws with the product

but this does not really answer the question as to what is really wrong with the water heater.....:D:D LOL thats a good one..

an obvious flaw in a design does not explain everything else....LOL..LOL..




Bison, I think you have answered everything
with your own double-talk.......

even with the problem sitting right in front of you nose,
like any average enjineer, you simply cannot admit it.......








could you please pull your head out of your ass....
 
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Mark, when you figure out how to properly format your posts and fix the syntax that screws them up, then your criticism might carry a bit more weight. :rolleyes: :D

As to the factual side of things, you came up short again. You still haven't explained how this FVIR event would allow repeated relighting and TC changes. That was the part I asked you about earlier...waiting for your experience on many systems to explain how the FVIR systems were actuating. On the other hand, curlysir provided some documentation of the ECO problem that was caused by faulty Unitrol gas valve set ups. Turns out my serial number was in that range. So you missed that one big time, and there is documentation to prove it.

Now if you want to do something intelligent and helpful, rather than behaving as a crap slinging monkey, try explaining the rather huge body of discrepancies between observed problems and your "Water Heater Theory of Everything." You see, some of us who have been around the block a few times on design and troubleshooting recognize that multiple aspects are often behind the most difficult to solve problems.

It would be helpful to quantify some of the differences in the two systems. For instance you could provide measurements on several of them. Engineers love numbers. Opinions don't carry much weight with us, but numbers we can do something with. As I've said, I'm not impressed with the Smith/State/Whirpool FVIR system. I can see where it will cause air induction problems for some. But to analyze the impact one needs some basics like:
1. Burner rating.
2. Chimney diameter.
3. Dimensions of the FVIR screen (e.g. length and width, plus slot count and slot dimensions so that total open area can be compared.) I roughed these out on the Whirlpool some time ago and it was marginal to my eye.
4. Any other bottlenecks...one could provide a huge screen but have the air pass through a narrow annulus--this is a common issue when one does pump suction/swirlbreaker design/redesign of units from years ago, as well as with distillation tower trays and distributors. The designer of one system often was not the designer of the other or the entire flowpath wasn't considered. Frankly, old equipment designs were lousy with "rule of thumb" engineering that fouled up details like this.
 

Master Plumber Mark

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People are dirty and lazy,,,,

The CFM this tank needs to so small I have yet to see how this happens. Maybe people homes are dirty, poor installs etc? Or many DID NOT READ THE MANUAL!!!!!!

Agian people think these units, furances are use and forget. People are lazy if this happens in my eyes.

Lastly, certain posters resort to nailing engineers. Maybe just maybe it again is not their fault. Maybe it is requirements driving it, management, mfg etc. I am not saying AO smith has the best intake but I fail to see why it is the units faults or the engineers.
So far, since I am new to this place, Runs with bison is nailing it head on!


Look dargo.....

when you design a product, you are supposed to design
it in a way to withstand anything thrown at it...


For example...
if you have a cell phone, if it could not with stand being dropped out of your pocket without it breaking, it probably would not be on the market very long...

you could not blame the lazy owner for having an accident
the phone should have been tested for extreme rugged situations.....

.Therefore... someone did not do their homework....OK??

Who is that someone anyway????

Who is the dumbass that designed this crappy unit???
---------------------------------------------------------------------

variables like REAL WORLD dirt and lint and filth and lazy stupid people should have been factored into the design of this water heater.....


Now, if you have a defective water heater and you try to blame dirty , lazy people who let the dryer vent fall off their dryers, or who do not clean up well....


you have not done your home work and tested the heater in the worst possible situatioins,

trying to claim that they should have read the owners
manual is simply retarted and stupid

So...lets educate the whole population of the united states
on how to clean the lint filters on their water heaters every
3 months......


..

this is a chicken shit way to weasel out of admitting
you made a stupid mistake with the design of your product....



I dont know why I am argueing with you...,

their stupidity is actually keeping me in business.

have a defective whirlpool to change out on monday
and others on the way....


Bison, if I have accidently mis-spelled a few words.
or not put them into proper paragraphs........

.........blow me.............................................................
.............................................................................................
 
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dargo

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Look dargo.....
when you design a product, you are supposed to design
it in a way to withstand anything thrown at it...
For example...
if you have a cell phone, if it could not with stand being dropped out of your pocket without it breaking, it probably would not be on the market very long...
you could not blame the lazy owner for having an accident
the phone should have been tested for extreme rugged situations.....
.Therefore... someone did not do their homework....OK??
Who is that someone anyway????
Who is the dumbass that designed this crappy unit???
---------------------------------------------------------------------
variables like REAL WORLD dirt and lint and filth and lazy stupid people should have been factored into the design of this water heater.....

Now, if you have a defective water heater and you try to blame dirty , lazy people who let the dryer vent fall off their dryers, or who do not clean up well....
you have not done your home work and tested the heater in the worst possible situatioins,
trying to claim that they should have read the owners
manual is simply retarted and stupid
So...lets educate the whole population of the united states
on how to clean the lint filters on their water heaters every
3 months......
..
this is a chicken shit way to weasel out of admitting
you made a stupid mistake with the design of your product....
I dont know why I am argueing with you...,
their stupidity is actually keeping me in business.
have a defective whirlpool to change out on monday
and others on the way....
Bison, if I have accidently mis-spelled a few words.
or not put them into proper paragraphs........

.........blow me.............................................................
.............................................................................................


WEll lets sum this up.. You have come down to the level as using, "chicken shit way ", "stupid" , retard...etc..Boy, you operate a great biz...Based on your posting and the wonderful text size, grammer, etc, great multi-million dollar biz... LMAO

Bud, a hot water tank and a phone are not even the same. Then again, if you READ THE MANUAL on the AO smith they say to clean the screen. Can you and your "customers" read???????Colleges do have <100 level classes you know? Also if this is an issue do a proper install or clean your damn home! Slobs

Ps. I have never cleaned the internal screen for the burner on an AO smith EVER!!!!!! In one year you are lucky if there is little debris on the screen (removable on the bottom). Then again I take pride in my home..

Again it comes down to lazy people (you and others) that think they can run units many times a day and do nothing and expect zero issues. So you can use a car for years and do nothing????

Then again service people love this since many feed off it (aka you). Then again how do you design for dumb Mr Non-engineer????? People like yourself is why lawn mower need sticker so you do not stick hands under it when running. Then again you are not an enginner.

I think you have an issue with this manufacture and need to come to terms you messed up, did not READ the book (aka clean the screen here; in english in the book) or you have one dirty home. Other then that, you posts are lacking to show real upscale ethics.
 
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Redwood

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So...

Exactly how do you clean that screen on the bottom of the water heater sitting in that code required pan anyway?

Remember now I am a home owner and not a plumber...:rolleyes:
So it is highly unlikely that I'll shut off the water heater, drain the water heater, disconnect the flue water and gas lines to tip it on its side or lift it straight up for access...
That pan seems a little tight and I don't have a Ridgid Micro See-Snake to look in there with but then again any plumber that charged $20 or, 30 an hour like an engineer's hourly wages probably wouldn't own one with the expenses of running his business.

Enlighten me please!
Or I'll wisely choose to buy the superior design that probably will never need cleaning...

We'll just have to let the Darwin was right run its course...:eek:
 
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