Takagi JR error code 12

[aksmieja]

All of the sudden, there is no hot water coming into the bathtub. The error code flashing is 12. I believe that is for a fuel sensor? Is that something common to go bad? Expensive? We can't find a dealer near that does repairs, so it is something we can order and install DIY? While researching this topic, I read that hard water isn't good for our tankless. Our softner quit about a year ago and we didn't replace it. Could that have anything to do with the error? (we have a sand-point shallow well)
The kitchen sink water did get fairly warm today. It has always had low water pressure compared to the bathtub. The heater didn't "blink" error code with that, but does when we run the tub. Any thoughts?
Thanks

[Dana]

Error code 12 is a flame sensor error. Buffing it clean with a fiber-tex or similar (soft-pot-scrubbers, not steel wool, not sandpaper) usually does the trick. It's an annual maintenance thing for some installations, goes for years in others. Some modulating-condensing boiler flame sensors have similar issues.

If you don't already have it, download the manual:

http://www.takagi.com/download/produ...uals/T-KJr.pdf

You can figure out how to find the flame sensor from the exploded diagram on P.24. (Be sure to turn off the power and the gas before opening the sucker up, eh? ) While you have shut down and open, clean the filter too (an annual maintenance thing in most installations.) Walk yourself through as much of the maintenance protocol on p.16 as you're competent to do before buttoning it all back up.

[aksmieja]

thank you so much!! Sounds way cheaper! LOL

[aksmieja]

still no hot water after we cleaned out the filter. I couldn't find the location of the flame sensor. The flame sensor wires we found, but not the sensor. Any clues? It's not listed on our manual.

[SewerRatz]

still no hot water after we cleaned out the filter. I couldn't find the location of the flame sensor. The flame sensor wires we found, but not the sensor. Any clues? It's not listed on our manual.

Its held onto the front of the burn chamber by a couple of screws. I see if I can find a diagram fro you.

[SewerRatz]

This is why I always try to install two tankless units. If one fails you will still be getting hot water from the second unit.

Here is the diagrahm. The part in the red circle.

[master plumber mark]

just passing through tonight....I couldent resist...

Sewer Ratz...
why in the world would you install 2 takagi units for double the price??/ just to be sure they have hot water if one breaks down???, (no offence meant here)



If they are on well water and have not had soft water in over a year, their is a very good possiblility that the heat exchanger is in dire need of a good vinegar washing...

the folw rate to the kitchen is much less than what would be going to the tub..

that is probably why the damn thing is capable of provideing a little water to the kitchen, with a closed chut heat exchanger....

Isnt it TRUE...
if they dont act quickly and get that thing cleaned properly, wont it VOID THEIR WARRANTY on the heat exchanger???

[SewerRatz]

just passing through tonight....I couldent resist...

Sewer Ratz...
why in the world would you install 2 takagi units for double the price??/ just to be sure they have hot water if one breaks down???, (no offence meant here)



If they are on well water and have not had soft water in over a year, their is a very good possiblility that the heat exchanger is in dire need of a good vinegar washing...

the folw rate to the kitchen is much less than what would be going to the tub..

that is probably why the damn thing is capable of provideing a little water to the kitchen, with a closed chut heat exchanger....

Isnt it TRUE...
if they dont act quickly and get that thing cleaned properly, wont it VOID THEIR WARRANTY on the heat exchanger???


please evil moderator, (whoever you are)
dont delete my post...



I bow down to you and I now take my leave again.....

Oh you do need to delime the unit on a regular basis or yes it will void the warranty.

I would not put two large units in. I would put in two of the smaller units. Let me use Noritz as an example. Lets say I have a home that needs a 931M unit to provide 6 gpm in my area for a retail cost of $2100.00 or I can install two 0751M units to provide 9.6 gpm at the total retail cost of $2600.00 for both units. So it will cost him $500.00 more plus another 2 hours in labor to install them both. Now he will have a good capacity and redundancy in case a unit becomes in need of repair.

[master plumber mark]

If the customer is willing to go through all that,
to get a battery of them....

I suppose it is just another solution to the tankless dilemma... put in two in case one breaks down and can be repaired...

people will do anything to go green.....

[SewerRatz]

If the customer is willing to go through all that,
to get a battery of them....

I suppose it is just another solution to the tankless dilemma... put in two in case one breaks down and can be repaired...

people will do anything to go green.....


please dont delete my post evil overlord...

Very true Master Plumber Mark. In most cases I only sell one Noritz 0751 unit since it can handle all their needs in a single bath home. But its the larger homes I like to sell the duel units instead of the more expensive single unit. Like I said it also gives them more GPM for the Δ/T rise. I still prefer tank systems in most cases. There are some homes no matter what you do it is not cost effective to be green.

As to servicing these units. I really feel a home owner should not be doing anything other than descaling, and cleaning the inlet water filter. Anything else should be left to a certified plumber that has taken the repair class for that unit. I know most of the people here say there is no one capable of repairing their unit near by, then look at the next city over.

This note to all those considering going tankless. One of the factors you should consider is how readily available are the repair parts, and is there any authorized repair technicians in your area for the brand you are choosing. I know of a few people that went with Rinnai, and Takagi in the Chicago are that had no hot water for up to 2 weeks waiting on parts or someone that is competent enough to trouble shoot the unit. Now as these units keep on getting sold, the supply house may eventually carry the repair parts needed in the near future.

Noritz in the Chicago area is the exception. They have a main office here with a plenty of parts, along with many plumbers that took their level 3 repair class, but if the plumbers prove incompetent they have technicians that will come out to trouble shoot the unit as well. Still if I needed a part from my supply house good luck. They get them from the Noritz warehouse on a need basis.

[master plumber mark]

Very true

This note to all those considering going tankless. One of the factors you should consider is how readily available are the repair parts, and is there any authorized repair technicians in your area for the brand you are choosing. I know of a few people that went with Rinnai, and Takagi in the Chicago are that had no hot water for up to 2 weeks waiting on parts or someone that is competent enough to trouble shoot the unit. Now as these units keep on getting sold, the supply house may eventually carry the repair parts needed in the near future.

Still if I needed a part from my supply house good luck. They get them from the Noritz warehouse on a need basis.

That was a Very good post....


now the questioin I pose...
Why in the world would you want to get yourself involoved in something that is probably going to get you in deep trouble with the home owner some day when it breaks down???

even this fellow with the Takagi unit is probably going to blame the installer for not
explaining that they must have soft water and de-scale it every 6 months.... and they will probably want
or demand service or a refund...



if it is a gamble to get parts for most brands of tankless heaters in less than a week
around here I could be shot by the lady of the house
and she certainly would expect me to bend over backwards
to get them hot water ..NOW.. (been there done that)

or give them their money back..

What do you do, tell them to go to hell till the parts arrive???



Their are places in our town that will install one for about 4500 . Money is the incentive, not service or relaibility..



I guess I am a worry wart and a sissey.....but I simply dont need the greif...and i dont
want to spend my week waiting on parts.




...

[Dana]

Very true Master Plumber Mark. In most cases I only sell one Noritz 0751 unit since it can handle all their needs in a single bath home. But its the larger homes I like to sell the duel units instead of the more expensive single unit. Like I said it also gives them more GPM for the Δ/T rise. I still prefer tank systems in most cases. There are some homes no matter what you do it is not cost effective to be green.

There seems to be a presumption that going tankless is all about going green. While it's true that there is an efficiency advantage, and subsidies from various governments for higher efficiency models that's not even the half of it. The rationale I see as often is about hot-water capacity- the ability to fill the oversized soaking tub/Jacuzzi, or have six people taking showers in rapid succession etc.. Then to some extent it's about the space required for that capacity- you could always add 1200-1500lbs of hot water in tank heaters to be able to handle all loads, but it takes more room (and in some instances, some structural reinforcement.)

Tankless hot water heaters are only about "green" on one hand- for the other hand it's all about indulgent splendor. (I suppose for the guilt-prone the efficiency argument helps them rationalize it, making them more likely to indulge their desires. :-) )

For true greenies there is usually better return elsewhere, eg: With subsidies, solar hot water is the same order of magnitude for installed-cost with a far bigger impact on fuel use, carbon footprint, blah, blah. If yer gonna spend a couple-three grand to go from 62% to 82% efficiency, reducing your fuel use for water heating by 15%, why not spend five grand and reduce it by 80% or more?

This of course the above estimate for savings of tankless vs. tank ignores the problems with EF testing not matching actual use, making it hard to predict apriori what the operating efficiency of a tank heater is. The soaking-tub filling 6-showering users will get far better efficiency out of the tank than its EF numbers imply, and the single-guy showers once/week type will get far worse. The tankless users will get about the same, independently of frequency & volume of use, making the as-used efficiency of a tankless more predictable, but in most cases it's EF numbers exceed the real as-used efficiency by ~5-8% (sometimes more) due to the efficiency robbing effects of short draws for hand washing, etc. It takes at least 3-6 gallon draws to actually achieve anything like the efficiency a tankess gets in an EF test, which draws 10.2 gallons at a time.

So is an 0.82EF tankless REALLY more efficient than a 0.62EF tank? Usually, it is, but only dramatically so for low-volume users. For high volume users the tank could actually be averaging over 0.70, and in the real world the tankless only runs 0.75-ish- half the efficiency difference implied by EF test data.

Bottom line- if you're out to save the planet, go solar. If you want to never run out of hot water (except when it breaks :-) ), go tankless- but be prepared to maintain the sucker.

If you want the highest efficiency for the lowest cost (and have a hydronic boiler running the heating system), go with an indirect tank. It'll have higher heating capacity than a tank, lower maintenance than a tankless.

[aksmieja]

I guess things got a little off track from my post. LOL
Anyway, NO I would never blame the installer because that would be me, my husband and a guy we hired to remodel our bathroom. A secondly, I wouldn't expect a refund or any warranty work because it's 5 yrs old! All I wanted was to find out the problem, order a part and get hot water back for my shower.
To update... my husband ended up calling Takagi and I was so impressed with the service tech. He spent over 2 hours on the phone walking us through everything. And honestly, he probably saved our home from burning down and inevitably saved our lives. There was some kind of switch that was in the wrong position, so it failed to "shut off" sooner because of the soot build-up.

The filter only had a little sand in it and from what it looked like, our water must not be as hard as we thought (although we will look into getting another water softener). It's the exhaust pipe that literally turned my husband and the near vacinity black. I had quite a mess to clean up when he was done, but now we know what to do as far as maintenance. Like I said, that tech gave us the best customer service I've ever experienced. If I had his name, I'd make sure to send him a letter of thanks. All customer service should be 1/2 that great.
Anyway, thanks for the help that some of you gave.

[SewerRatz]

I guess things got a little off track from my post. LOL
Anyway, NO I would never blame the installer because that would be me, my husband and a guy we hired to remodel our bathroom. A secondly, I wouldn't expect a refund or any warranty work because it's 5 yrs old! All I wanted was to find out the problem, order a part and get hot water back for my shower.
To update... my husband ended up calling Takagi and I was so impressed with the service tech. He spent over 2 hours on the phone walking us through everything. And honestly, he probably saved our home from burning down and inevitably saved our lives. There was some kind of switch that was in the wrong position, so it failed to "shut off" sooner because of the soot build-up.

The filter only had a little sand in it and from what it looked like, our water must not be as hard as we thought (although we will look into getting another water softener). It's the exhaust pipe that literally turned my husband and the near vacinity black. I had quite a mess to clean up when he was done, but now we know what to do as far as maintenance. Like I said, that tech gave us the best customer service I've ever experienced. If I had his name, I'd make sure to send him a letter of thanks. All customer service should be 1/2 that great.
Anyway, thanks for the help that some of you gave.

Glad you got it all worked out.

[Dana]

I guess things got a little off track from my post. LOL
Anyway, NO I would never blame the installer because that would be me, my husband and a guy we hired to remodel our bathroom. A secondly, I wouldn't expect a refund or any warranty work because it's 5 yrs old! All I wanted was to find out the problem, order a part and get hot water back for my shower.
To update... my husband ended up calling Takagi and I was so impressed with the service tech. He spent over 2 hours on the phone walking us through everything. And honestly, he probably saved our home from burning down and inevitably saved our lives. There was some kind of switch that was in the wrong position, so it failed to "shut off" sooner because of the soot build-up.

The filter only had a little sand in it and from what it looked like, our water must not be as hard as we thought (although we will look into getting another water softener). It's the exhaust pipe that literally turned my husband and the near vacinity black. I had quite a mess to clean up when he was done, but now we know what to do as far as maintenance. Like I said, that tech gave us the best customer service I've ever experienced. If I had his name, I'd make sure to send him a letter of thanks. All customer service should be 1/2 that great.
Anyway, thanks for the help that some of you gave.

I've yet to call the Takagi help line, but yours is not the first glowing report I've read on how thorough & patient they are. (They DO support the product!)

I'd be curious to hear more about what switch in the wrong position would keep it from turning off though???