Shower plumbing remodel help

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am350z

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I need to move the water supply, valve and head from one wall in a shower to the wall next to it. My house is 6 years old so I assume it is pex or copper. I have been getting quotes of 600-1000 dollars for the job. That seems ridiculous to me! Everything is exposed and there is full access in the attic. Maybe my expectations are wrong. What do you guys think? I am contemplating doing the work myself. Doesn't seem too complicated in the diy books I looked at but I have never done plumbing before. Any advice? Hire the pro or dive in?
 

Ian Gills

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The price seems reasonable compared to what I have paid for plumbing in the past on the East Coast: $2000 to replace a shower valve and tub drain.

I would not do this as a first DIY plumbing project, but if it can wait then I would attempt to "build up" to doing it myself. First, get some scrap pieces of pipe and learn how to solder. Then do some other small plumbing projects around the house to get some experience and confidence before taking this on. For example, get some practical experience with using teflon tape and pipe dope which you may need for installing the shower head. Or change a toilet.

Along the way you may want to find out if you can isolate the supply or not. This may mean turning off the water to your house completely. Any problems with this and I would definitely recommend you call a plumber. Most of my early DIY attempts were thwarted by having an old shut-off main valve to the house that did not turn off properly. I got a plumber to replace this before I did anything serious myself.

Being able to shut off your water effectively is your insurance should anything go wrong and will buy you time to call a plumber to come out and fix your mistakes.

I am also assuming by "full access" you mean no walls or tiles are in the way of what you are trying to do.
 
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FloridaOrange

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I need to move the water supply, valve and head from one wall in a shower to the wall next to it. My house is 6 years old so I assume it is pex or copper. I have been getting quotes of 600-1000 dollars for the job. That seems ridiculous to me! Everything is exposed and there is full access in the attic. Maybe my expectations are wrong. What do you guys think? I am contemplating doing the work myself. Doesn't seem too complicated in the diy books I looked at but I have never done plumbing before. Any advice? Hire the pro or dive in?

What work is included with the quotes. Most showers do not have access plates so there is at least drywall work and repair to tile where the old valve was, then tilework and maybe drywall where the new valve will go.

A co-worker of mine needed to replace his valve and if I recall he paid almost $400 without repair to his closet from accessing the valve.

It is just piping but there is trade skill to consider. When I plumb I tend to need 3-4 times the amount of time needed to do the job right along with 1 or 2 trips to one of the big box stores. If I'm in a pinch for time I call a good friend who is a plumber to do it.
 

am350z

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No, its just moving piping after drywall is gone. The shower build will be done by someone else so there is no demo and no wall repairs.

Ian, I guess I meant I have done this type of plumbing. I know how to use teflon tape:D I have replaced toilets and faucets, etc just not piping. Cant imaging soldering pipe is that difficult and the house is new so I assume the shut off valve works though wouldnt be hard to double check. I guess I was just suprised at the hourly rates. One guy was over 100 bucks an hour. I'm a physician and barely make that!
 

Jadnashua

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A plumber with assistant is easily over $100/hour, at least where I live.

If you are mechanically inclined, and can follow instructions, soldering isn't all that hard. Now, measuring and getting everything exactly where you want it the first time can be tricky.
 

hj

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The idea behind plumbing books IS to make everything look easy so DIYers will be encouraged to buy the books. It does not take long to run up a $500.00 plumbing bill, but it can take "forever" to live down a bad DIY installation.
 

am350z

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Interesting. Over on the tile forums all the pros encouraged me to tile my own shower and offer plenty of advice and assistance. Here the pros try to dissuade you from doing your own work! Maybe the books make it sound easier then it is but I think I will try. To be honest I have been extremely dissappointed with the plumber in the area. Half the guys I talked to expected me to pay them to come out and give a quote. What a joke!
 

FloridaOrange

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Interesting. Over on the tile forums all the pros encouraged me to tile my own shower and offer plenty of advice and assistance. Here the pros try to dissuade you from doing your own work! Maybe the books make it sound easier then it is but I think I will try. To be honest I have been extremely dissappointed with the plumber in the area. Half the guys I talked to expected me to pay them to come out and give a quote. What a joke!

I don't think anyone is trying to dissuade you from doing your own work, rather it's just making you aware of things involved. Additionally tile work doesn't have the ramifications that a bad plumbing job does, usually it's an aesthetics issue with tile if the job is bad.

If you are unhappy with your plumber then find a new one, I'm sure there are guys in your area that are hungry for work. As far as the pay to quote thing, I don't necessarily agree with it but for some areas that's common and when they do the job the quote cost gets subtracted from the overall bill.
 

am350z

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Agreed that tiling is usally asthetics but tiling a shower can have the same ramifications of plumbing. Pour a bad mud base and you will have water problems! If it really is that difficult I have no problem hiring it out. It just doesnt sound that difficult and the charge sounded crazy but maybe I'm wrong:confused: I've called 8 guys (5 wanted me to pay for an estimate which I have real problems with), guess I'll keep searching but for 1k dollars I will try it myself!
 

FloridaOrange

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A plumber with assistant is easily over $100/hour, at least where I live.

If you are mechanically inclined, and can follow instructions, soldering isn't all that hard. Now, measuring and getting everything exactly where you want it the first time can be tricky.

Agreed that tiling is usally asthetics but tiling a shower can have the same ramifications of plumbing. Pour a bad mud base and you will have water problems! If it really is that difficult I have no problem hiring it out. It just doesnt sound that difficult and the charge sounded crazy but maybe I'm wrong:confused: I've called 8 guys (5 wanted me to pay for an estimate which I have real problems with), guess I'll keep searching but for 1k dollars I will try it myself!

Your answer is above. As far as water damage, a 1/2" pipe leaking in a wall can dump gallons and cause damage to several rooms vs. a leak in a tiling job.
 
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am350z

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I will take my chances. Better than paying the @#'s in my area. Never met such a rude bunch. Got dozens of estimates from all walks of life, everyone was great except the plumbers. Most of the plumbers were arses:mad: Sorry, just my experience.
 

hj

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And why shouldn't they expect to receive some pay for using their gas and time to drive to your house to give you an estimate? Especially, if it is going to be wasted time if you just use any information they give you so you can do it yourself, or have a handyman do it. Free estimates, unless you live next door, are almost a thing of the past. The successful bidder, however, will usually credit the charge against the bill for the job. Many body shops charge for their estimates and YOU have to bring your car to them to get it.
 

am350z

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Free estimates are absolutely NOT a thing of the past. I received free estimates for the shower, custom glass enclosure, electrical, landscaping, decking, custom home theater and custom trimwork. Multiple for each job and chose the person I trusted most not just the lowest price. I don't know where you live but I have had numerous auto body repairs/paint refinishing and never been charged for an estimate (at least not BMW or Mercedes). I'm not going to pay someone 80 bucks to come out and look a shower stall (of which would not help them make an estimate) and give some outrageous quote. Your implication that I was getting estimates to find out how to do the job myself is preposterous. You sir would fit in well with the plumbers where I live!!
 
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Iminaquagmire

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1) Get yourself a MAPP gas torch kit, some Oatey No. 95 lead free flux, some lead free plumbing solder, a Ridgid 150 tubing cutter and a close quarters "imp" or "midget" cutter. a heat shield cloth, flux brushes, and pipe and fitting brushes. A shopvac and some white bread will remove or stop any residual water flow from messing up your joints.
soldering_bread.jpg



2) Watch this youtube video: Soldering How-to

3) Try it yourself. Its pretty foolproof. If you turn your water back on and it leaks, heat the joint up and pull it apart. Clean the fittings and redo the joint.

Once you get the hang of it, its easy. A few months ago I had only soldered maybe ten joints, then I almost completely rebuilt the whole supply system for my house, plumbed a new basement bathroom, and just today, replaced to sillcocks and their supplies.

BTW, I don't think 600 is rediculous at all nor is getting charged for estimates. Consider yourself lucky. My grandparents just paid 600 dollars to get their kitchen faucet replaced that wasn't broken in the first place. It needed a washer that I was going to come back and put in but they sold them on the new faucet. A 100 dollar retail faucet and 500 in labor for a 45 minute job tops. I don't know where you live, but if you're near me, don't use Black Diamond Plumbing.
 
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am350z

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Thank you for the suggestions. I was hoping in a diy forum to get encouragement and advice, not a lecture on estimates!
 

hj

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If only "one of the plumbers charged $100.00", then you are in a low rate area. Here MOST of them do, and some are well above that. Call a "flat rate plumber" and see what he quotes you. THe body shops try to eliminate "bid shopping", so they charge for the estimate and if they get it the credit their charge, AND one other shop's fee, to your bill. They assume two bids should be enough to let you decide where to have it fixed. Factory brand body shops are a different matter, however. A craftsman has to decide whether he wants to do a job and charge for his time, or spend the same amount of time giving a "free estimate", which may never result in any income. More customers than you might think will ask for an estimate and then pick the contractor's brain to find out what he will do and how to do it, then use that information to do it themselves, or call the local $25.00 an hour handyman to do it. They may not charge the same rate for the estimate as they would performing a task, but the fuel and overhead is the same no matter what they are doing.
 

am350z

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Dude, maybe you dont get it. I have never heard of a body shop charging for estimates period, factory brand or not. You want to eliminate bid shopping? What happens to capitalism? The only thing charging for an estimate did was put those shops not even in contention for the job. Example, I called 10 shops, 4 gave me quotes, 6 wanted to charge for the estimate. I just elimated them and will chose from one of the four! And whether some customers just pick the plumbers brain and do themselves I dont know. But your accusation that I was doing such was out of line. Obviously I have come to an online site and asked for advice. Over 100 bucks an hour is ridiculous for skilled labor! Look here. http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Journeyman_Plumber/Hourly_Rate Otherwise, I should quit my job and become a plumber, especially after Obamacare!!
 

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Dude, maybe you dont get it. I have never heard of a body shop charging for estimates period, factory brand or not. You want to eliminate bid shopping? What happens to capitalism? The only thing charging for an estimate did was put those shops not even in contention for the job. Example, I called 10 shops, 4 gave me quotes, 6 wanted to charge for the estimate. I just elimated them and will chose from one of the four! And whether some customers just pick the plumbers brain and do themselves I dont know. But your accusation that I was doing such was out of line. Obviously I have come to an online site and asked for advice. Over 100 bucks an hour is ridiculous for skilled labor! Look here. http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Journeyman_Plumber/Hourly_Rate Otherwise, I should quit my job and become a plumber, especially after Obamacare!!

From the last clause of your post, it sounds like you're in the healthcare industry. What do you or your employer bill per hour for services? Dental hygienists with a 2 year degree and 3 months experience get billed at an effective rate of $135/hr or more. With a lot less costs than a plumbing truck, driving to the customer. And doesn't the patient pay for a "surgical consult", which is how surgeons get their business?

I'm not a plumber, but don't begrudge their making a good living if they're good at what they do. To the extent I think auto mechanics, plumbers, electricians or other skilled tradespeople are overpaid for the skill involved, I do the work myself. I replace plumbing fixtures and gut & renovate bathrooms myself. I gladly pay a plumber to deal with tapping into or repairing existing cast iron.

You're entitled to your opinion, and what you do is your choice, but realize that one way or another, the customer generally winds up paying for the price quote. As a separate charge, or built into the hourly rate, it's a cost that has to be covered by the business.

One final thing to keep in mind: Often (but not always) it's the established firms with repeat customer bases and good word of mouth who charge for an estimate (to not waste time on people who try to get a dozen free estimates, looking for the lowest, a competition most won by an unethical or incompetent bidder), crediting it against the bill if they get the work. Many people like the certainty of dealing with such businesses. Others...well, they like the thrill of the hunt for a bargain.

Just reread your earlier post in which you say you're a physician, and only get around $100 per hour. That may be your compensation, but I don't believe you're billing only $25 for a 15 minute office visit/consultation. Are you? By me, it's $100 -150 for appointments 15 minutes apart.
 
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am350z

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The plumbing to the shower valve is PEX. I have looked into it and working with PEX seems very easy! Only cooper will be from valve to shower head. 1000 dollars to move Pex is crazy. As you said Ted, if the tradesman is overcharging you do it yourself which is what I intend to do given the crazy estimates. However, you are misinformed about physician reimbursement. For example, a 15 minute visit for hypertension follow up is reimbursed by Medicare about 62 dollars. Private insurance of course may be more. I certainly understand plumbers have business costs but they don't compare to the 80k annual in medical malpractice insurance premiums. Hence my displeasure with 100+ per hour to move some PEX!
 

TedL

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However, you are misinformed about physician reimbursement. For example, a 15 minute visit for hypertension follow up is reimbursed by Medicare about 62 dollars. Private insurance of course may be more. I certainly understand plumbers have business costs but they don't compare to the 80k annual in medical malpractice insurance premiums.
Good sleight of hand maneuver! I ask your billing rate; you answer with the lowest discount rate you accept, and omit 20% of it!

I am very well informed about Medicare payment rates. ("Reimbursement" is a strange choice of words, as it implies you first paid for something, and are merely getting paid back.) The number you supply is within two dollars of the amount Medicare pays for an established patient OV in our area. You conveniently omit that that represents only 80% of the allowable charge -- the patient thus pays another $16 or so. That minor oversight covers the malpractice insurance, with almost $10k left over, if you work 7 hours a day, 200 days a year, all with Medicare patients.

You of course did not address my question: Your billing rate, not the lowest discount rate you accept from a particular group of patients. Many plumbers who are responsible and caring members of their community will provide substantial discounts to people who can't afford "sticker" price for necessary repairs. Caring is not limited to members of one occupation

This discussion is ironic, because I believe physicians in general earn every dollar they get. A couple months ago I saw the $15,000 surgeon's fee paid on my wife's behalf for a 4 hour procedure (with follow up care), and my reaction was that at two per day, this world class doctor was making less per day than a lot of mediocre athletes, and a small fraction of the pay for the A-Rods. Entertainers have incredible leverage, and so can make millions off pennies per person entertained. Physicians generally can only treat one at a time, and leverage is limited to hiring NPs or PAs and adding to practice profits that way.

Good luck with your plumbing.
 
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