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Thread: Kinetico Q237?

  1. #16

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    Andy,

    I found a good link about Kinetico product's spec:

    http://www.clearwaternow.ca/MachPerf...eDatasheet.pdf

    Do you have similar spec file for Q237? I have 2040S in the link above. If the sales is honest, the Q237 should be same as 2025S, from the spec, 2025s is not bad though, even the efficiency is not high as 2040S. They has $500 difference here

  2. #17

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    Another one:

    http://www.aqua-nouveau.co.uk/wp-con...tener_p517.pdf

    For 2020c, what's the difference between S serious and C serious? I am trying to find out if any other twin tank model, 2040s is kinda costly to me

  3. #18
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kosiko View Post
    Hi Gary,

    Thanks for the input, very interesting information. Now I can calculate that I used about 3434gallon water per month, it's 8.6gpg here, then I need to remove 29532grains per month, about 984grain per day.

    If a softener has 4000g capacity, then it will regenerate about every 4 days in my case. Based on the how many grain per lb salt and how many gallon water per regeneration need, I will able to calc all my running cost

    Is my calculation correct?
    You're welcome.

    That's not the way I would figure things.

    You do not want resin to sit around 30 days between regenerations.

    You do it on a daily grains used basis. X people * 60 gals/person = X * 9 gpg = grains/day * the number of days you want between regenerations; 8 is best for resin life.

    And then, you need to know the peak demand gpm the softener has to treat.

    In today's larger houses, that usually sizes the softener by cuft and then, you select the salt dose that produces the K of capacity you found in the math formula above.

    Let's look at the figures in the first Kinetico link you provided. See where it says X gpm @ 15 psi (drop)?

    Well that is the gpm you get IF you'll suffer a 15 psi pressure loss.

    Do you really want to do that?

    I don't know so now I'll ask you if you think that has anything to do with the max gpm that the softener will still be capable of removing all the hardness from?

    Sybron Chemicals, Andy says Kinetico uses their C-266 fine mesh resin in some of those softeners, the spec sheet shows C-266 with a SFR of 1-5 gpm/cuft.

    Note that a number of those Kinetico softeners mentioned here only have from .3 to .7 cuft of resin per tank. That's less than 1 cuft of resin in each tank.

    The Mach control valve allows water through both tanks at the same time UNTIL a tank has to regeneration, then you only get water through the one tank that is using water through it to regenerate the other tank. And, you share the Max flow to drain gpm with any water use you are running, like your shower. Which reduces the constant SFR gpm of the softener by the same gpm going to drain.

    Also, Kinetico shows grains per cycle.

    What they mean is the grains between regenerations. It's possible, depending on how much water you use, that some of those softeners will be regenerating a tank 1-3 times per day.

    So calculate how many total lbs and gallons of water will be used each regeneration and then compare the total to an 8 day period as I said before must be done to compare to a regular softener that is sized and set up correctly.

    So how many people in the house?
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by biermech View Post
    Wouldn't this apply to any fitration system? To include the Clack. If you have a pressure loss, the flow of the water decreases. And you don't say that the distributor also can determine the max water that can flow through a unit.
    I believe that you don't know about these things and that's why you are having problems with what I have said. Personally I think the confusion is due to you not knowing what you don't know. Try this...

    It applies to all softeners regardless of the brand of control valve or the brand of softener.

    That X gpm@15 psi (drop) is the SFR gpm of the entire softener at 15 psi pressure loss across the unit.

    It has nothing to do with the max SFR gpm of the softener in regards to its ability to remove all the hardness in the water. Which is dictated only by the volume of resin in the softener.

    Have you ever read a resin spec sheet? All resin manufacturers have a spec sheet for each resin they make. They state the SFR gpm/cuft. Do you know how to use that information?

    It is a conservative CYA type thing in a way because the figures are used for industrial waters where the leakage must be held to say 4 mg/l. At whatever the peak demand flow rate in gpm is. I.E. Purolite C-100 has a SFR of 1-5 gpm/cuft. I'm assuming you know what leakage is but if not, it is the amount of hardness left in the softened water. Industrial uses mg/l and residential/commercial uses gpg, and there are 17.1 mg/l in one gpg. A homeowner could have like 10 mg/l of hardness in their softened water and it will not cause them problems as it can in industrial product manufacturing.

    So far none of that has anything to do with the distributor tube.

    Today the most commonly used distributor tube size is 1.05" OD, 3/4" ID, until you get up into about a 14" tank, then you use a 1" ID or larger and a lateral type bottom distribution system instead of a bottom basket. You know what they are right?

    Well, at say 40 psi through a 3/4" pipe you get something like 22+ gpm. So what is the basis of your question about the distributor tube, or why do you think I should mention it in describing the constant SFR gpm of a softener?

    Quote Originally Posted by biermech View Post
    Also, why after 19 years servicing water treatment equipment haven't I come across a customer complaining about hard water if the run a lot? Millions of units that don't have the SFR through their unit you claim is best not complaining about hard water. I don't get it.
    I get a lot of phone calls and many are from people that have a softener and they tell me it isn't "working". In many cases I eventually ask them if they think back, has it consistently always given you 0 gpg soft water. Invariably they tell me no, never did consistently but most of the time it did until lately. And I ask, was that satisfactory, and they say no, I wanted soft water all the time and now there's something wrong with it and I've done X and it worked and then quit again and I did X and it's not working and now I want a new one.

    So maybe you haven't been asking about that but, you were called out to service a softener that isn't working right? Next time ask the person the question and see what they tell you. Expect some to say "hell man I don't know, SHE just tells me her hair isn't right and I go look at it". A few will say, "no, that slimy feeling comes and goes all the time".
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  5. #20
    DIY Senior Member Bob999's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    It has nothing to do with the max SFR gpm of the softener in regards to its ability to remove all the hardness in the water. Which is dictated only by the volume of resin in the softener.

    Have you ever read a resin spec sheet? All resin manufacturers have a spec sheet for each resin they make. They state the SFR gpm/cuft. Do you know how to use that information?

    It is a conservative CYA type thing in a way because the figures are used for industrial waters where the leakage must be held to say 4 mg/l. At whatever the peak demand flow rate in gpm is. I.E. Purolite C-100 has a SFR of 1-5 gpm/cuft.
    Gary,


    I have a question about the calculation of SFR--the max rate at which a softener will consistently produce soft water. In the above quote you say that it is determined by the volume of the resin in the softener. Elsewhere, including your website, you cite specific values for SFR for various volumes of standard resin. On your web site it is listed as "The SFR gpm of most softeners in gpm is: 1.0' cuft = 9, 1.25' = 10, 1.5' = 12, 2.0' = 13, 2.5' = 18, 3.0' = 20, 3.5' = 22 gpm, 4.0 = 25 etc.. ". If SFR were directly related to resin volume, and nothing else, I would expect that a 50% increase in resin volume would increase SFR by 50% and a doubling of the resin volume would double the resin volume. However that is not the relationship reflected in the figures. I am particularly puzzled by the fact that a 25% increase in resin volume, from 1 cubic ft to 1.25 cubic ft only increases SFT by 11%, while a 25% increase in resin volume from 2 cubic ft to 2.5 cubic ft increases SFR by 38%.

    My question is why the SFR has such an erratic relationship to resin volume. Is it because there are other things that affect the number that are not specified? If so, what are they?

  6. #21
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob999 View Post
    Gary,


    I have a question about the calculation of SFR--the max rate at which a softener will consistently produce soft water. In the above quote you say that it is determined by the volume of the resin in the softener. Elsewhere, including your website, you cite specific values for SFR for various volumes of standard resin. On your web site it is listed as "The SFR gpm of most softeners in gpm is: 1.0' cuft = 9, 1.25' = 10, 1.5' = 12, 2.0' = 13, 2.5' = 18, 3.0' = 20, 3.5' = 22 gpm, 4.0 = 25 etc.. ". If SFR were directly related to resin volume, and nothing else, I would expect that a 50% increase in resin volume would increase SFR by 50% and a doubling of the resin volume would double the resin volume. However that is not the relationship reflected in the figures. I am particularly puzzled by the fact that a 25% increase in resin volume, from 1 cubic ft to 1.25 cubic ft only increases SFT by 11%, while a 25% increase in resin volume from 2 cubic ft to 2.5 cubic ft increases SFR by 38%.

    My question is why the SFR has such an erratic relationship to resin volume. Is it because there are other things that affect the number that are not specified? If so, what are they?
    With the exception of a 1.25', with each increase in volume, the tank diameter is increased. That spreads the column of resin out and you don't get the full benefit of all of the increased volume because it's the depth of the resin that counts. Going from a 9" to 10", then 10" for a 40K, and then a 12" and then a 13" shows the spread.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by biermech View Post
    In your 1st statement you said and I quote, "Well that is the gpm you get IF you'll suffer a 15 psi pressure loss". The word "IF" implied that "IF" you lost 15 psi the GPM would be X.
    I don't understand, that is what it means, IF the person is willing to suffer a 15 psi pressure loss they will be getting X gpm through the softener. Or, IF they run X gpm through the softener, they will have a 15 psi pressure loss.

    What else do you think it means?

    Quote Originally Posted by biermech View Post
    And yes I know how it works.
    Then why the above?

    Quote Originally Posted by biermech View Post
    If the "V" (water does not pass through the resin in a linear form but rather a "V" shape) reaches the distributor, you have hardness bleed through. Any 1st year study learns that.
    ummm that's why I always use a gravel underbed. I guess you don't.

    Quote Originally Posted by biermech View Post
    And that still does not explain how out of the thousands of people that I have tested there water when I was there of service, salt delivery or just a routine check up di not have hard water unless the unit was not working. No matter how fast they ran the water. I have not run across a house yet that exceded the flow rate. I have seen it is a commericial business.
    You still don't understand what I'm talking about, you didn't run more gpm through the softener than the constant SFR gpm and as the water is running collect the sample and test it.

    If you still don't agree, call a resin manufacturer and ask them about it. Or figure out what the spec sheet figures mean.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by biermech View Post
    When a unit says x gpm @15 psi mean you lose 15 psi @ x gpm through the resin.
    It means you lose 15 psi across the whole softener.

    Quote Originally Posted by biermech View Post
    As far as gravel, again you are wrong. Getting to be a habit with you. The purpose of the gravel (underbedding) it to protect the distributor. Nothing more.
    You believing that, it's OK with me.

    Quote Originally Posted by biermech View Post
    And yes I do understand what you are talking about. If you pass too much water the "V" will be at the distributor and you get hardness bleed through. This is because of lack of bed depth. The SFR is the rate at which resin can remove hardness. If it is that important, then tell all of us why manufactors size units they way they do.
    When sizing a softener, how do you determine how much water is too much?

    Yes it is a lack of bed depth and the only way to get more bed depth is to use a larger softener.

    You are proving my point.

    How do manufacturers size softeners if not by bed depth; starting with a 6" x 18" resin tank, each succeeding larger size softener has a larger tank and more resin and that means more bed depth, right?
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

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