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Thread: Senate bill fines people refusing health coverage

  1. #16
    Senior Robin Hood Guy Ian Gills's Avatar
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    It amazes me though, how people from other countries think we are the richest. I have a friend in New Zealand who thought that until, he met me, and then, I bursted his bubble, lol.
    It is because you are so big. America has 250 million people, which is five times the population of England and the same population as Nigeria, the largest country in Africa. All driving in cars with jobs and homes.

    It is just the sheer number of people not living in poverty that makes the USA quite amazing in terms of its wealth.

    But on cancer in England, all my family who were diagnosed were sent to hospital the same day. You do not mess with cancer. You can wait with a hip replacement though. There, you may have to wait several months in pain, so I am not saying it's perfect....but it is free. And of course, if you cannot wait you can always pay and go private. State-run does not mean the end of private medical insurance. Just a choice, especially for those that cannot afford medical care.
    Last edited by Ian Gills; 07-03-2009 at 06:16 PM.

  2. #17
    Senior Robin Hood Guy Ian Gills's Avatar
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    Experimental therapies will almost certainly not be covered. But scans and bone marrow would definitely be covered (if a donor could be found).

    But then, I'd doubt Aetna would be too impressed if I present them with a bill for stem cell therapy here!

    A good example is IVF which I am doing at the moment. In the UK you get one go on the health service. In the US most insurance does not cover this, but mine gives me $50,000 worth of treatment (about five goes).

    Remember that the costs you pay for treatment are much higher (by several times) than elsewhere in the world.
    Last edited by Ian Gills; 07-03-2009 at 06:24 PM.

  3. #18

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    If it is a girl you got to name it Annie.

  4. #19
    Senior Robin Hood Guy Ian Gills's Avatar
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    Thanks for the PM Cookie and the interesting article. Unfortunately, my sperm is not the problem. My count and mobility were actually "exceptional". It's the eggs which are far more tricky to fix than sperm. The role of men in reproduction is really nothing special. What needs to go on in a woman's body is pretty much rocket science.

    Annie is a nice name but unfortunately the name of an ex-girlfriend which might cause some problems with my wife!
    Last edited by Ian Gills; 07-03-2009 at 06:47 PM.

  5. #20
    Master Plumber master plumber mark's Avatar
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    Talking Ian...we wont be wealthy for much longer

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Gills View Post
    It is just the sheer number of people not living in poverty that makes the USA quite amazing in terms of its wealth.

    But on cancer in England, all my family who were diagnosed were sent to hospital the same day. You do not mess with cancer. You can wait with a hip replacement though. There, you may have to wait several months in pain, so I am not saying it's perfect....but it is free. And of course, if you cannot wait you can always pay and go private. State-run does not mean the end of private medical insurance. Just a choice, especially for those that cannot afford medical care.


    Ian, dont worry, it wont be long before the sheer dead weight of everyone loading up on the health care bandwagon finally breaks the bank... and we will be a third world country... Like Nigeria...


    free health care for everyone is ok, but of course it will be
    a dilluted form of health care...because of the expence and sheer numbers involved.........

    if you want the best , you will simply have to be rich and be able to pay for it...

    that is basically the way it is all over the world...


    Ian...
    In England, lets say 250 years ago, what kind of health care did old King George provide to everyone that demanded it.....???

    wasnt it called the Tower of London??

  6. #21

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    I found this just today,

    Europe's free, state-run health care has drawbacks

    As US tackles health care reform, some Europeans warn against too much government control

    • <LI class=byline>By Maria Cheng, AP Medical Writer
    • On Saturday July 4, 2009, 3:32 pm EDT
    LONDON (AP) -- As President Barack Obama pushes to overhaul the American health care system, the role of government is at the heart of the debate. In Europe, free, state-run health care is a given.

    The concept has been enshrined in Europe for generations. Health systems are built so inclusive that even illegal immigrants are entitled to free treatment beyond just emergency care. Europeans have some of the world's best hospitals and have made great strides in fighting problems like obesity and heart disease.
    But the system is far from perfect.
    In Britain, France, Switzerland and elsewhere, public health systems have become political punching bags for opposition parties, costs have skyrocketed and in some cases, patients have needlessly suffered and died.
    Obama has pointedly said he does not want to bring European-style health care to the U.S. and that he intends to introduce a government-run plan to compete with private insurance, not replace it.
    Critics fear Obama's reforms will lead to more government control over health care and cite problems faced by European health systems as examples of what not to do.
    Other experts say Americans could learn from countries like Germany, the Netherlands and Switzerland, especially in the debate on how to reorganize health insurance.
    "These countries are in some way an inspiration for our reforms," said Uwe Reinhardt, a health economist at Princeton University. "All of these countries somehow manage to assess risk and compensate for it ... we could learn from that."
    Many European health officials applaud Obama's attempt to provide health care to millions more Americans, but they also advise him to proceed with caution.
    "What we can be proud of in Europe is the ground rules, that everyone has the right to health care," said Jose Martin-Moreno, a health expert at the University of Valencia in Spain. "But the implementation has been difficult and one size does not fit all."
    Private health care is also available in Europe, creating in some instances a two-tier system that critics say defeats the egalitarian impulse on which national systems were built.
    When Britain's National Health System was founded 61 years ago, it pledged that with few exceptions, patients would not be charged for anything.
    All prescription drugs are covered, and the government regularly sets health targets, like maximum waiting times in emergency rooms or for having an operation.
    Critics say the policies are often driven more by politics than science. Last week, Prime Minister Gordon Brown promised that patients unable to see cancer experts within two weeks would get cash to pay for private care. Brown had previously argued against paying for private providers and some say the reversal may be a gimmick to boost his sagging popularity.
    More serious problems in Britain's health care were reported last month, when cancer researchers announced that as many as 15,000 people over age 75 were dying prematurely from cancer every year. Experts said those deaths could have been avoided if those patients had been diagnosed and treated earlier.
    "There is nothing inherently different about cancer in the U.S. and Britain to explain why more people are dying here," said Dr. Karol Sikora, of Cancer Partners UK.
    The U.S. already spends the most worldwide on health care. According to the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development, the U.S. spent $7,290 per person in 2007, while Britain spent $2,992 and France spent $3,601.
    Still, experts say that before committing the U.S. to footing the bill for universal health care, Obama should consider it has cost Europe.
    A World Health Organization survey in 2000 found that France had the world's best health system. But that has come at a high price; health budgets have been in the red since 1988.
    In 1996, France introduced targets for health insurance spending. But a decade later, the deficit had doubled to 49 billion euros ($69 billion).
    "I would warn Americans that once the government gets its nose into health care, it's hard to stop the dangerous effects later," said Valentin Petkantchin, of the Institut Economique Molinari in France. He said many private providers have been pushed out, forcing a dependence on an overstretched public system.
    Similar scenarios have been unfolding in the Netherlands and Switzerland, where everyone must buy health insurance.
    "The minute you make health insurance mandatory, people start overusing it," said Dr. Alphonse Crespo, an orthopedic surgeon and research director at Switzerland's Institut Constant de Rebecque. "If I have a cold, I might go see a doctor because I am already paying a health insurance premium."
    Cost-cutting has also hit Switzerland. The numbers of beds have dropped, hospitals have merged, and specialist care has become harder to find. A 2007 survey found that in some hospitals in Geneva and Lausanne, the rates of medical mistakes had jumped by up to 40 percent. Long ranked among the world's top four health systems, Switzerland dropped to 8th place in a Europe-wide survey last year.
    Government influence in health care may also stifle innovation, other experts warn. Bureaucracies are slow to adopt new medical technologies. In Britain and Germany, even after new drugs are approved, access to them is complicated because independent agencies must decide if they are worth buying.
    When the breast cancer drug Herceptin was proven to be effective in 1998, it was available almost immediately in the U.S. But it took another four years for the U.K. to start buying it for British breast cancer patients.
    "Government control of health care is not a panacea," said Philip Stevens, of International Policy Network, a London think-tank. "The U.S. health system is a bit of a mess, but based on what's happened in some countries in Europe, I'd be nervous about recommending more government involvement."
    Associated Press Writer Ricardo Alonso-Zaldivar contributed to this report from Washington.

    http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Europe...n&asset=&ccode=

  7. #22
    Master Plumber master plumber mark's Avatar
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    Talking good article

    I would warn Americans that once the government gets its nose into health care, it's hard to stop the dangerous effects later," said Valentin Petkantchin, of the Institut Economique Molinari in France. He said many private providers have been pushed out, forcing a dependence on an overstretched public system.
    Similar scenarios have been unfolding in the Netherlands and Switzerland, where everyone must buy health insurance.
    "The minute you make health insurance mandatory, people start overusing it," said Dr. Alphonse Crespo, an orthopedic surgeon and research director at Switzerland's Institut Constant de Rebecque. "If I have a cold, I might go see a doctor because I am already paying a health insurance premium."

    that is about what is going to happen here someday....

  8. #23
    Plumber Cass's Avatar
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    I agree 100%...Government provided health care will push the ability of the private sector to come up with new cures back 50 years because there will be no / less incentive...

  9. #24
    Master Plumber master plumber mark's Avatar
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    Talking Health care incentives....

    Cass....its a shame isnt it???

    When you think that the only reason people care about their fellow man is when their is a profit to be made
    by makeing a medicine that will save them....

    or at least prolong their lives till they run out of money.....

    and then they patent the drug so no one will be able
    to make it for nothing and save dieing children in Africa.

    is that a crime or is it simply business????.

    where is the humanity???

    if thier was not a profit,
    then 95 % of the people involved would find other avenues to make a living and we would turn back
    the clock at least 50 years.....

    perhaps the government should just take over eveything
    and tell doctors and everyone involved exactly what they will make every year...

    take over all hospiitals and all pharmacuticles and simpy run them as .... not for profit....

    but richly reward everyone working in them???


    but Cass that aint gonna happen is it???

    no one is going to give up control over their turf, are they??


















    .

  10. #25
    Plumber Cass's Avatar
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    I am lost mark...are you agreeing with me or disagreeing...I can't tell...

  11. #26
    Senior Robin Hood Guy Ian Gills's Avatar
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    Well, like it or not socialized medicine is coming, because the American people want it.

    That's the greatest thing about America...democracy!

    And I think your grandkids will thank you for it some day. I am not allowed to vote, so I am just enjoying watching on the sidelines.

    Funny really because this forum is the most "socialist" thing I have found in America. Friendly people, helping each other out. It don't get much better than this, anywhere in America or anywhere on the planet!
    Last edited by Ian Gills; 07-05-2009 at 01:08 PM.

  12. #27
    In the Trades MaintenanceMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Gills View Post
    Well, like it or not socialized medicine is coming, because the American people want it.

    That's the greatest thing about America...democracy!

    And I think your grandkids will thank you for it some day. I am not allowed to vote, so I am just enjoying watching on the sidelines.
    Weather we get a government run plan or not it won't be what the people want. What they say on the news is not the majority opinion. Most of us want nothing to do with government healthcare or especially the runaway deficit spending it will take to pay for it. Our kids will only have outrageous oppressive taxes and substandard healthcare to thank us for. This is an agenda pressed upon by the current administration and other socialist bureaucrats. Same story with Cap-n-Trade. It is utter idiocracy that government run healthcare is an "economic necessity". Sell it now, pay for it later, use the economy as an excuse. I pray for my kids because they will bear more of the burden for this than we will. This entire agenda is being pushed through at warp speed and no cost is too much. If people don't wake up, and soon, America and everything she stood for will be history.

  13. #28
    Plumber Cass's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Gills View Post
    Well, like it or not socialized medicine is coming, because the American people want it.

    That's the greatest thing about America...democracy!

    And I think your grandkids will thank you for it some day. I am not allowed to vote, so I am just enjoying watching on the sidelines.

    Funny really because this forum is the most "socialist" thing I have found in America. Friendly people, helping each other out. It don't get much better than this, anywhere in America or anywhere on the planet!
    Ian...you show your ignorance...this forum is the furthest thing from socialism...these people are donating their time and knowledge...no one is forcing them...under socialism we would be forced to be doing this "for the good of the people"

    This is pure American Helpfullness, the furthest thing on the planet from Socialism...Thats what you don't get...

    Under Socialism

    #1 your $$$ is taken from you whether you like it or not...

    #2 you get what you get regardless of the problem...

    #3 You get it when they say so not perhaps when you need it...

    #4 They decide IF the treatment is affordable and IF you are now to old to spend that kind of $$$ on you...

    #5 Any other guidelines they want to attach to Health Care...
    Last edited by Cass; 07-05-2009 at 02:50 PM.

  14. #29
    Plumber Cass's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Gills View Post
    I am not allowed to vote,
    And I am glad....

  15. #30
    Plumber Cass's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Gills View Post
    That's the greatest thing about America...democracy!

    Democracy is mob rule...We...incase you don't know are a Rebublic...not a Democracy

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