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Thread: Cadet 3 FloWise (1.28 gal) with Korky WaterWise Fill Valve uses 1.6 Gal

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    DIY Junior Member miracj's Avatar
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    Default Cadet 3 FloWise (1.28 gal) with Korky WaterWise Fill Valve uses 1.6 Gal

    I bought an American Standard Cadet 3 FloWise (1.28 gal) 2 piece tank and bowl recently.
    (Parts number 4021.128.*** and 3014.128.***)

    Based upon information here and from other sources, I didn't install the original fill valve but immediately replaced it with Korky WaterWise Fill Valve (Model 818Z), but left the original Cadet 3 flapper there (although I also have a larger Korky Cadet 3 flapper on standby). Based upon my water meter (which measures in .02 cu feet increments (and is resolvable to .01 cu feet), the toilet uses 1.6 Gal per flush.

    Is there something wrong in using the Korky WaterWise fill valve, that is making it use extra water? Or perhaps I have it set wrong? I have the water line set to 5/8" below the fill valve top, and the C/L line is 1" above the fill line.

    I might point out that I have had no issues with any flushes over a period of 2 weeks of usage, including one person in my family that consistently can clog a "normal" toilet (even with no toilet paper). The spot size seems adequate, and there seems to be no stains left in the bowl. There does seem to be a little splash that seems to collect some spotting on the top of the bowl.

    Thanks for any input,

    Regards,

    Ira
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    Last edited by Terry; 07-09-2009 at 10:41 AM.

  2. #2
    DIY Junior Member miracj's Avatar
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    Since I received no responses to my question, I decided to reduce the water in the tank by taking a plastic peanut jar, filling it with rocks (so it would not float) and sealing it with the top. The toilet now flushes using 1.28 gallons and we still get clean flushing.

    After a couple of weeks of testing, I may try reducing it a bit more, but I suspect it will start to have issues with bowl streaks.

    Regards,

    Ira

  3. #3
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer jadnashua's Avatar
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    Must have missed this one..I was on vacation when posted.

    A generic valve may not have the same bowl/tank fill ratio and it's dumping more water down the drain by overfilling the bowl than the factory calibrated unit. For example, on the Korky valve used by Toto, they have a special restrictor to get the right balance. A generic replacment (even from Korky) will work, but you could end up using more water or failing to fill the bowl to the top. So, by adding a non-flushable volume and reducing the water available in the tank, you may not get the performance the thing is capable of. It sounds like you'd need to add a restrictor so not as much goes into the bowl. The goal is to have both the bowl and the tank refill at exactly the same time rather than dumping excess into the bowl while waiting for the tank to refill.
    Jim DeBruycker
    Important note - I'm not a pro
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer; Schluter 2.5-day Workshop Completed 2013, 2014

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    Forum Admin, Expert Plumber Terry's Avatar
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    The Korky Waterwise fill valve is a 1.6 gallon fill valve.

    It will shut off for a leaking flapper.
    But it's not a 1.28 fill valve.


    Demo of the product

  5. #5
    DIY Junior Member miracj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jadnashua View Post
    It sounds like you'd need to add a restrictor so not as much goes into the bowl. The goal is to have both the bowl and the tank refill at exactly the same time rather than dumping excess into the bowl while waiting for the tank to refill.
    This sounds reasonable. Any suggestions to the best way to restrict the water volume to the bowl refill, ideally (but not absolutely needed) without increasing noise?

    Quote Originally Posted by terry
    It will shut off for a leaking flapper.
    That and the supposedly quiet refill were the reasons for purchasing it.

    Quote Originally Posted by terry
    The Korky Waterwise fill valve is a 1.6 gallon fill valve.

    ........
    But it's not a 1.28 fill valve.
    Their literature on that unit, both on the web site, and the instructions which came with the Waterwise fill valve, does not specify that it is a 1.6 gallon fill valve !

    However, before purchasing the valve, I explicitly asked Korky's customer service via email if it was compatible with the toilet model I was purchasing. While they were very helpful as far as Customer Service goes, the Customer Service person did not seem to have the correct info, stating "Our Waterwise valve will work just fine in your application."

    And frankly, if I were promoting a valve as "QuietFill", I'd at least publish comparison noise level data before and after for some typical units.

    Otherwise, the Korky valve seems well conceived and designed, but falls into a typical TLI (Too little information instead of TMI) that many web sites seem to have.

    Thanks,

    Ira

  6. #6
    Plumber jimbo's Avatar
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    The "issue" with AmStd fill valves involved the ones with the yellow top. The stopped using those a long time ago.


    Today's high performance toilets, and especially the ultra lows, typically use unique, purpose-built parts to achieve the flush performance and the water spec. The days of "generic" toilet parts is coming to an end!

  7. #7
    DIY Junior Member Davebutch's Avatar
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    Do American Std toilets come with a jar of rocks in case adjustments are needed?

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    DIY Member micp879's Avatar
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    Generally a fill valve will have zero effect on how much water a toilet flushes. The amount of water in each flush is mostly related to how quickly the flapper closes. Korky was absolutely right when they said their fill valve would be compatible with your toilet. For that matter, practically any fill valve should be compatible. The only area that the fill valve could possibly effect the amount of water used would be the excess amount of water used to fill the bowl after a flush, while the tank is still filling. All the excess water would just spill over the weir in the toilet, resulting in lost water. But as far as the actual flush it self, the fill valve won't have any affect on 1.28 vs 1.6 gpf.

  9. #9
    Forum Admin, Expert Plumber Terry's Avatar
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    The fill valve does make a difference in how much water is used.

    A Fluidmaster replacement 400A fill valve is a big water waster.
    They will overfill the bowls by quite a bunch.

    The standard Korky 528 fill valve with under fill some bowls.
    The Korky 528T restricts what goes into the tank, forcing more bowl fill, but still a lot less then the Fluidmaster 400A.

    Some of the Eco Drake tanks have their own Eco fill valves, designed to work with the 1.28 gallon concept.

    Granted, the flapper will make a difference too. Some are designed to drop quicker.

    All of these parts come into play.
    At the factory, they match the components, with knowledge of how much "bowl fill" they will need, and the capacity of the tank.
    How fast does the tank complete filling in regard to the bowl filling.

    When Ben Grumbles from the EPA came to Seattle for our televised infomercial on water saving WaterSense toilets, we could see that the old style 3.5 gallon tanks would overfill the bowl by as much as 2.0 gallons.
    So that made them what? maybe five gallons?
    It was two gallons going down the drain, after the flush had taken place.
    It served no purpose whatsoever.
    Last edited by Terry; 07-10-2009 at 04:17 PM.

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    DIY Junior Member miracj's Avatar
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    Some additional info for those reading.

    1st, I was using the original American Standard Flapper, not the Korky Cadet 3 replacement, so that is not the reason for the difference.

    The original fill valve identified itself as a Fluidmaster 400, and had a black American Standard plastic top on it. The white fill tube had no constrictors on it and looks unmodified. Thus there seems to be no effective way to identify that this fill valve was anything other than a standard fill valve.

    The tank space used by the Korky Waterwise and the above Fluidmaster 400 seems about the same and should not make a significant difference in the filling of the tank

    The bowl was extremely clean with the 1.6 gallon flush and may be a very small bit dirtier (possibly not even viewable) with the modified tank (with the space taking jar) flushing 1.28 gallons.

    Regards,

    Ira

  11. #11
    DIY Junior Member CWSam's Avatar
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    Default Low water surface area w/ Cadet 3 flowise

    I have just installed the Cadet 3 Flowise 1.28 GPM. I notice that the bowl only has about a 7x6 water surface. I'm reading it should have around 9x8.

    My question is how can I increase the water surface area. The flapper is a big green thing with a yellow float? attached to it.

    Any thoughts would be appreciated

    Last edited by Terry; 10-08-2009 at 08:22 AM.

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    Senior Robin Hood Guy Ian Gills's Avatar
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    Have you placed the refill tube from the fill valve down the overflow pipe?

    It should be placed there to top up the trap.

  13. #13
    Senior Robin Hood Guy Ian Gills's Avatar
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    What a beautiful toilet.

    Although not yet cauked at the base I see. Do you not trust this sturdy steed?

  14. #14
    Forum Admin, Expert Plumber Terry's Avatar
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    You can try adding more water slowly to the bowl to see if it's even possible to get a larger water spot.

    The black tube on the fill valve is what fills up the bowl after the flush.

    The water depth is determined by the top of the trapway bend.

  15. #15
    DIY Junior Member CWSam's Avatar
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    Default Low water level in bowl in Cadet 3

    Everything is attached correctly. If I flush it quickly the water in the bowl only comes up to about 7x6. I've found that just pausing a second when pushing down the lever apparently causes the flapper to close a bit slower thus I'm now getting a proper water level in the bowl of about 9x8.

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