Slanted vertical waste line leading to toilet/closet flange

I have a toilet waste line that was placed in preperation for the yet to be attached toilet flange. The vertical 3" pvc coming up to the hole where the flange will go is leaning at an angle of about 7 degrees off vertical since the plumber did not get the run below aligned perfectly with the hole. The horizontal run is about 1" offset.

Is this acceptable? Can a coupling, no hub, or gasketed flange be inserted w/ that much skew at the flange to vertical pipe connection safely?

There are so many close fitting connections in such a compact area, that I don't see any way to align the run better and replace that non straight vertical without cutting out and rebuilding a huge conglemeration of fittings. There is one section, the first horizontal downstream from the elbow under the toilet, where there is 4 and 5/8 inches of pvc pipe, but from there onward, there are about 8 fittings all within less than an inch of each other (a 1" tee from the sink plus ebows, then 5 fittings in a row bending towards/down into a wall). That 4 and 5/8 inches isn't enough to fit 2 opposing 22.5 degree elbows, which would be just about right to shift the line over 1". There is not enough play in the run to force it into alignment.

A gasketed closet flange seems it might allow enough play to be placed into the vertical pipe at a slight skew and there is the safety margin of it's extra length, though perfect gasket compression seems like it might be a concern. A standard coupling doesn't seem to allow enough play, and that or a no hub seem more likely to collect debris when skewed.

This seems a bit of a mess to me, but it passed rough in inspection. To be fair, it's an extremely tight space to work in, with only 2x10 joists, (studio apt bath above a 12' wide garage). The plumber who did this work is unresponsive/multi time no show, and I've pretty much given up on him. I need to get this ready, with the vertical below the flange cut off correctly, before I insulate and close in all the plumbing in this floor/ceiling.

Attached are some photos and a drawing, the last photo simply showing a gasket flange test fitted with the needed amount of skew.

Thank you for this marvelous forum! I've found it extremely helpful!

Bruce

That looks like a hack job to me. Are you certain the plumber was licensed? That will not work the way it is, and all of the elbows will certainly present a problem if snaking is ever needed. Time to put some pressure on the "plumber" or hire another on to make this right. I can't imagine how this passed inspection.

flange

I doubt that you will ever get a flange to seal to that pipe properly and still sit flat on the floor. I cannot see any way to correct it other than to cut it out and redo it, and possibly redo it better this time. Although now that the joist has been weakened with that hole through it, you probably do not want to drill another one.

It is NEVER acceptable to cut a hole in a joist like they did...too close to the outside. It may also be too close to an end, but that can't be seen in the picture. There are some very specific rules about where and how big a hole you can make in a joist...whomever did it broke at least one of the rules. You floor joists no longer conform to their original specs...your floor is now weak.

Thank you much for the feedback guys. I appreciate it. Yep...he was licensed.
Bruce

I just noticed your flange is an inside fit. This is not recommended for a 3" pipe as it cuts the area of the pipe opening too much. You should have a flange the fits over the 3" pipe. Suggest you find another plumber to straighten this mess out, there's no way that I can see it can be made right with minor adjustments, and if there is one thing you want to do right the first time, it's the toilet drain.

Thanks Gary. Understood. I was considering a gasket flange (inside fit), since it would have some play, allowing it to be wedged at a slight angle in the skewed vertical pipe as opposed to a typical flange fitting over the pipe which doesn't allow any play. As HJ noted however, the gasket would likely not seal acceptably skewed like that anyway, on top of your point that less than 3" is not recommended for toilet waste.

It looks like I will be redoing this whole stretch of plumbing, (or preferably handholding my "plumber" to do it better), as well as sistering alongside a new joist, given Jadnashua's perfectly logical feedback on the now comprimised structure.
However, I'm realizing at this point that there is no allowable way to run 3" pipe (actual 3 1/2") through 10" deep joists (9 1/4" actual), given that code restrictions appear to allow a max hole size of 3" (1/3 of depth by UPC 2003 ).

Does anyone see any alternative to building a soffit below the joists for this run (uggghhh...yuck), or a mistake in my conclusion that this is the only acceptable solution (given that the 3" waste line does need to run perpendicular to the joists)?

This is a uniquely small span building (only 12' wide), hence the shallow 10" joists, but presumably the extra $ for 2x12's would have been worth it if I had better considered the plumbing repercussions. It looks like I started the problems off with that bad decision, though this plumber seems to have done competely unacceptable work to make matters much worse, (grrrrr).

Thank you all for your helpful feedback.

Bruce

Hmmm....nobody? Well, you've all already been extremely helpful, but I'll try asking that last question in a slightly different way just in case.....

Has anyone ever plumbed a 2nd floor toilet where the joists were smaller than the typical 12" nominal depth?

Thanks much.
Bruce

p.s. That max hole size code I noted above was IRC 2000, not UPC. I believe my area, (Austin), is using a later version, but I think it's prob safe to assume the restrictions are only more, not less, restrictive, if changed.
p.s.s. My plumber is supposedly coming out Friday. I'll put an update on what he says...but I suspect it will not be Friday given his dependability.

The solution may be to not cut through a joist, but to run the 3" to one of the two walls at the "end" of the joists.

It's also possible that an engineered joist might allow the hole you need. Check this:

http://www.ilevel.com/literature/TJ-9001.pdf

Thanks TedL....I didn't think of an engineered joist.
The line does have to run perpendicular to the joists....the main waste line comes up through a concrete stem wall at the base of a wall paralell to the joists.
Thanks much.
Bruce

Just an update for the sake of anyone who might find it useful info in the future (though I suppose this is a rather specific situation).

My plumber cut and reattached (w/ a coupling) the 3" waste line at the spot where the metal support strapping is in the photo. Contrary to what I thought, he was able to get the pipe lined up with the hole enough to get a standard toilet flange to fit and be level w/ the floor, (didn't let him actually glue the actual flange in permanently yet since I want to wait until I have the tile in). I guess that with a teeny bit of skew in both sides of the coupling, a little bit of skew in the flange, a little bit of shimming to move the line over, and allowing a little bit of offset within the hole...it added up to enough to almost cover that 1'' offset.

As for the comprimised structure, (to large of a hole to low in the joist), after thinking about replacing or sistering in w/ a custon matched engineered joist, (expensive, arduous, time consuming), I decided I am going to fabricate a fairly heavy guage metal strap about 2' long that will run along the underside of the joist and wrap up around both sides of the joist except where the pipe is, (like 4 huge ears on a strap), screwed into the joist both sides and bottom w/ 30 or so screws to distribute any tension at the weak spot back into the uncomprimised sections. Unless I'm completely wrong, (always possible), the bottom of the joist would never be in compression. Of course I have no proper calculations as an engineer would do, for size and fastening, but am making it very large in hope of over compensation.

The rather overly serpentine maze of fittings, (pointed out as a cleanout nightmare), is something I didn't see a reasonable alternative to, so my intention is to leave it.

I just recently found that there is such a thing as an "offset toilet flange". This is the sort of thing I was originally hoping to find when I ran into this problem, but didn't see it then. I'm guessing that no one suggested it due to the comprimised flow/reduced cross section?

Anyway, thanks again to everybody for all the help. Of course if anyone sees/notes that I'm just making a horrible mistake, for my edification or as warning to any later readers...I'll check back.

Bruce

offset toilet flanges

I think they are illegal yet even plumbing houses carry them.