Need help with submersible pump/motor selection

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Nofears67

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OK a revised proposal from my well guy just came in for $10,000. Below are the components.
6" - 7.5 hp Franklin pump wet end - $1416
6" - 7.5 hp Franklin motor sand fighter w/subtrol - $1862
460V - 3 phase pump panel ESP - $1190
(3) - 85 gal pressure tanks - $1500
Panel board - $200
Franklin sub monitor premum pkg w/3 yr warranty - $1075
Pressure tank plumb kit - $325
140 ft - 2" pvc drop pipe - $560
145 ft - 10-3 jacketed cble w/grnd - $217
Well seal - $190
Misc electric - $150
tax - $767
Installation - $475

What do you guys think (even though the pump is oversized)?
 

Waterwelldude

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I see you want to set the pump on pvc.

DO NOT DO THAT! It will break off.
That motor will fatigue the pipe quick ,and the pipe will break and the pump WILL fall.

Anything over a 2hp should be set on steel and not set on pvc.


Travis
 

Speedbump

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I see you want to set the pump on pvc.

DO NOT DO THAT! It will break off.
That motor will fatigue the pipe quick ,and the pipe will break and the pump WILL fall.

Anything over a 2hp should be set on steel and not set on pvc.

Ditto Ditto Ditto!

I didn't do up a quote because it sounded like you had gone for the one pump fit's all scenario. And you never told me what your max usage for the home would be.
 

Valveman

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OK a revised proposal from my well guy just came in for $10,000. Below are the components.
6" - 7.5 hp Franklin pump wet end - $1416
6" - 7.5 hp Franklin motor sand fighter w/subtrol - $1862
460V - 3 phase pump panel ESP - $1190
(3) - 85 gal pressure tanks - $1500
Panel board - $200
Franklin sub monitor premum pkg w/3 yr warranty - $1075
Pressure tank plumb kit - $325
140 ft - 2" pvc drop pipe - $560
145 ft - 10-3 jacketed cble w/grnd - $217
Well seal - $190
Misc electric - $150
tax - $767
Installation - $475


OK I see your pump man still has no clue as to how pump systems work. A 7.5 HP pump (doesn't say which model number) will produce about 80 GPM. Three 85 gallon tanks running at 75/95 only hold 15 gallons each, for a total of 45 gallons draw down. That is only about 30 seconds of run time for a motor that needs a minium run time of 60 seconds. I would use no less than 6 of those tanks in a system without a CSV. Even with 6 tanks the cycling will be excessive. However with only three tanks, a demand of about 40 GPM would cause the pump to cycle once every two minutes, or 720 times in 24 hours. Even with 6 tanks the pump can cycle 360 times per day. This is what causes people to run from PVC drop pipe, because cycling will cause the pump to unscrew itself and fall in the well as others here describe. That is if the cycling doesn't destroy the motor or control box first. This kind of cycling will also pop bladders in those tanks on a regular basis.

I prefer 2" galv pipe also but, I have installed many pumps larger than this on PVC pipe without any problems. I just use a CSV so there is not enough cycling to unscrew or destroy the pump. The CSV makes a big difference, because when running low flow for 24 hours, the pump will only cycle once instead of 720 times.

If you have a 3 phase panel with ESP, you don't need the sub monitor, or the SubTrol because they all do the same things. And I believe the ESP is better than the Sub Monitor.

If you check out the fine print in the "3 year warranty" you will find that it is a "parts and workmanship only warranty". This means that something had to be manufactured incorrectly to be covered. It doesn't cover lightning, lack of cooling, sand damage, damage caused by cycling, or anything else important. If something is manufactured incorrectly it will show up in the first few minutes, or at least the first year, which is already covered. 3 year warranty is just a carrot, and they won't show you the stick until you need a warranty. If you stay with a 5 HP or smaller pump, you should be able to purchase a 5 year warranty for about 50 bucks that covers everything.

I don't see you needing anymore than 55 GPM at 250' of head. Here is the list of materials that I would have quoted and use myself.

4" - 5 hp Franklin pump wet end, equivalent to a Goulds 55GS50 - ?$
4" - 5 hp Franklin motor - ?$
5" motor shroud - ?$
460V - 3 phase pump panel ESP - $1190
(2) - 85 gal pressure tanks - $1000
Panel board - $200
CSV3B2T Cycle Stop Valve - ?$
Pressure tank plumb kit - $325
140 ft - 2" pvc drop pipe - $560
145 ft - 10-3 jacketed cble w/grnd - $217
Well seal - $190
Misc electric - $150
tax - $767
Installation - $475
5 year warranty - ?$

If you keep at this, you will eventually get the pump man educated, as he should already be.
 

Nofears67

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Thanks everyone for the great feedback!

I would honestly prefer to go with sch 80 PCV drop pipe just due to the corrosion resistance, but I know nothing about drop pipes breaking off, etc so I would have to refer to the professionals consensus (you guys).

Cary, I have asked the well guy to revise his proposal with the Gould 5hp motor and 5hp franklin motor you recommended.

I was also always planning on using a 2" CSV, per your recommendation. Now I just need to figure out if we should go with 2" pvc or steel drop pipe.

On another note, I am wondering if I should have the well "brushed and bailed" to really clean up the casing sides, open the perfs and get any junk out that may be in there...
Is this really necessary since the water came back good?
Can it jeapordize the integrity of the 36 year old 1/4" wall casing?
Should I just leave it as is?

Would I get the 5 yr warranty directly from Franklin?

Thanks again!
 
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Valveman

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Can it jeapordize the integrity of the 36 year old 1/4" wall casing?
Should I just leave it as is?

Would I get the 5 yr warranty directly from Franklin?

Most pump companies offer an optional 5 year warranty on pumps up to 5 HP.

Old steel casing, you might make it worse. It would be nice to have it brushed and bailed but, if it ain't broke don't fix it.
 

Nofears67

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I just got back the full lab results from this well water and below are some of the consituents that are a little concerning. Could you guys please take a look and tell me what you think a good solution for each of them is? I am mostly concerned about the pH being quite acidic at 6.4.

With the steel casing being 36 years old and the water this acidic I am now wonering if it would be prudent to install an 8" pvc casing inside the 12" steel casing and gravel pack between the two?

Wouldn't this allow the new 4" - 5hp pump to be installed within the 8" casing and eliminate the concern of the steel casing deteriorating and ruining the well within our lifetime.

pH = 6.4
Iron = 0.707
Calcium = 75.3
Magnesium = 29.70
Potassium = 2.6
Manganese = 0.075
Silica = 20.70
Sodium = 15
Zinc = 0.110
Alkalinity (total) = 210
Hardness = 310
TDS = 320
Turbidity = 2.5 ntu
Choride = 8
Flouride = 0.8
Nitrate as N = 1.2
Sulfate = 62

Thanks guys!
 
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Gary Slusser

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Yes you need water treatment equipment but not necessarily for 6.4 pH. The iron and hardness will cause more problems than the pH. You'd use a correctly sized softener and AN filter based on the info I need below.

To tell you more I'd need you to call me to go over your peak demand gpm, family numbers, numbers of bathrooms and types of fixtures etc..
 

Nofears67

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To tell you more I'd need you to call me to go over your peak demand gpm, family numbers, numbers of bathrooms and types of fixtures etc..

3 bdrm, 2.5 ba single story home
2 full time occupants (my wife and I)

Master bath will have;
100 gal roman tub
two person shower with 2 heads, 1 rain head, and 4 body sprays on wall
2 sinks
1 toilet

2nd bath will have;
shower with 1 standard head and 1 rain head.
1 sink
1 toilet

half bath will have;
1 sink
1 toilet

Kitchen and laundry;
standard fixtures

We have not specified what "type" of fixtures yet but hopefully the above gives you an idea of our needs.
 

Valveman

Cary Austin
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I knew exactly what you meant. If you are installing those things, you are the one taking a test drive. I talk to pump installers everyday that have stuck their neck out and installed a few hundred of these things, only to find out that they are going to have to warranty ever single one. Then they either have to call all the customers who bought one and tell them of the problems they are having, or just wait for the angry customers to call them. That particular brand has only been available for about 5 years. Which is long enough to have done a few test and seen the problems for yourself. That is if you bought into it five years ago, and installed a bunch to test at that time. Otherwise, you are just Franklins latest Guinea Pig.

A good pump man would not even change brands of tanks or motors unless he had tested them for many years. Are you old enough to remember when Franklin decided to switch to aluminum end bells on their motors. They kept assuring me that it had been tested and would be fine. Warrantying every motor I installed at that time almost put me out of business. Sure Franklin replaced the motors, but they didn't help out on the labor at all. I ended up with a mountain of those motors with the bottoms pooched out, a huge labor bill, and a stain on my reputation.

Have you ever tried a new brand of bladder tank without testing them properly? I once got talked into a tank that was suppose to be as good as the one I had always used. After having to warranty everyone of those tanks, I no longer stick my neck out for unproven products.

However, those variable speed pumps do seem to last longer in Michigan than many other place. I think that is because of the good water quality, shallow water tables, and limited water use by the home owners. If you install a system for a couple of old people living in a house by themselves, with no heat pump, drip system, sprinkler system, or any other major water demand, even the SQE's are lasting for quite a while.

If you do accelerated test like I do, and put systems in where there are drip systems, evaporative air conditioners, and heat pumps, you will find that these variable speed systems do not last long at all. If you think the pump and motor companies are spending so much promoting these new products to actually make pumps and motors last longer, then I have some land in Louisiana I want to make you an unbelievable deal on. Yeah that cp.com thing is a good way to lure customers to the idea of constant pressure. We think everyone should try a variable speed system once like we did 20+ years ago. Then we started looking for a reliable way to deliver constant pressure. The Cycle Stop Valve has replaced every brand of VFD system sold since 1993, and is still doing so today. In this economy, people are now looking for constant pressure products that are less expensive and makes pump systems last a long time, and that is exactly what the CSV does.

BTW, even a home owner can go to www.Driveswarehouse.com and pay only 153 bucks for a VFD that is much better than any of the ones put out by the pump and motor companies. Installers who are educating themselves about VFD's are now using these because they have so many more adjustable parameters, and they cost much less. That is until they realize that the CSV is far superior to any VFD.
 
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Valveman

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I don't really understand why these systems last a little longer in Michigan than other places. Maybe it is just limited use. If you have 500 of these out now, you will soon understand what I am talking about. However, like I said, many young people don't realize their pump system should last 20 years. So they are a market ripe for VFD's.
 

Speedbump

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If you install a system for a couple of old people living in a house by themselves,

They aren't in Michigan, they are all down here in Florida. Then comes winter and the ones that weren't here are here now!:confused:
 

Valveman

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Here are just a few links for you. There is more on the Grundfos system because it has been out longer, and I still think it is better than the others. I am just starting to hear from many Sub and Mono Drive customers because there are only a few that have been out longer than 5 years, and that is when it starts costing them. I also teach many classes on this subject, including several at the NGWA meetings in Vegas over the years. I would be happy to use my more than 20 years experience with all brands of VFD's to help keep you from making the same mistakes. It is not just my opinion. I just hear more about it because by the time someone calls me, they are looking for a reliable alternative to VFD. So I get to hear all the bad stories that the pump and motor companies won't tell you.

Over the years I have heard from many ex-employess of the big pump companies. They say these pump companies don't like Cycle Stop Valves because "not only do they deliver constant pressure but, they make pumps last longer and use smaller tanks". So if they are spending a lot of money promoting VFD systems, that is because they DO NOT make pumps last longer, and many a pump man has fallen for the hype.


http://www.cyclestopvalves.com/references_4.html

https://terrylove.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25401&highlight=cu301

https://terrylove.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23931&highlight=cu301

https://terrylove.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23551&highlight=cu301

https://terrylove.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22667&highlight=cu301

https://terrylove.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22517&highlight=cu301

https://terrylove.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22312&highlight=cu301

https://terrylove.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21661&highlight=cu301

https://terrylove.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21331&highlight=cu301

https://terrylove.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10403&highlight=mono+drive

http://www.cyclestopvalves.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=51

http://www.cyclestopvalves.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=82

http://www.cyclestopvalves.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=61

http://www.cyclestopvalves.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=50

http://www.cyclestopvalves.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=49

http://www.cyclestopvalves.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=47

http://www.cyclestopvalves.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=26

http://www.cyclestopvalves.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32

Oh yeah, and this is how we fix SQE's.
 

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Valveman

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BTW, one way I can tell when a product is having problems, is by looking in the dumpsters at the pump supply houses. When you see many dumpsters full of MQ's, SQE's, Sub Drives, and Sub Drive switches, it says volumes.
 

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Valveman

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Understood! Sorry to have gotten off track. A video of the well should not be that expensive while the pump is out. That casing could have problems or be good as new. Years ago I use to say that we are just guessing, because it is 200' underground and we can't see it. Now cameras are an everyday thing. If the casing is bad you can line the well with smaller casing but, then you can never clean or work on the steel casing again, and that is where your problem will be.
 

Gary Slusser

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3 bdrm, 2.5 ba single story home
2 full time occupants (my wife and I)

Master bath will have;
100 gal roman tub
two person shower with 2 heads, 1 rain head, and 4 body sprays on wall
2 sinks
1 toilet

2nd bath will have;
shower with 1 standard head and 1 rain head.
1 sink
1 toilet

half bath will have;
1 sink
1 toilet

Kitchen and laundry;
standard fixtures

We have not specified what "type" of fixtures yet but hopefully the above gives you an idea of our needs.
That's a good start and gives me a general idea but we still need to talk, sorry.
 

Nofears67

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A video of the well should not be that expensive while the pump is out. That casing could have problems or be good as new. If the casing is bad you can line the well with smaller casing but, then you can never clean or work on the steel casing again, and that is where your problem will be.

How can a video cam show the actual integrity of the casing? I mean...how can the video indicate the remaining thickness of the casing wall?
 

Valveman

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The casing can be pretty thin and still make a good well. I have seen wells that had stove pipe thin casing to start with, and was still good years later. My Grandfather dug some wells in the 30's and installed steel casing, which are still being used today. What you are looking for is perforations that are rusted shut, bar holes rusted out and gone, or joint welds that are broken. You can usually even see through the perfs and tell a little about the thickness of the metal. It is just so much better than guessing before investing more money. Ask for a price. It should be minimal, which makes it a no brainer.
 

Nofears67

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What's a resonable fee to pay for having a 160' deep well with 12" casing video'd?

Thanks
 
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