another Shallow (Point) Well - Jet Pump debacle

Hello good people,

First just want to say thanks, thanks, thanks. I have been reading this forum
for just a week or so now and I'm amazed at all the great help you dole out to folks. I hope now ya'll can help me out too.... I just wish I came here about 2-3 years ago.

Heres my/our deal...
I'm in Michigan on a small lake about 30mi. from Lake Michigan very sandy soil. Grand-pa built this summer cottage in back in the '50s. Before he died it was the cottage was used year round. He drove the shallow well himself and I believe he used some lengths of 1 1/4" galvanized (did they have that back in the 50's?) it's about 30' deep and I hit water with a weight on a string about 13' down the well.

This well-pump has not been working well/right for over 3 years now. The cottage is has only been used rarely in that time during the summer months. I would try to get it going for my Mom a couple times a summer and do what little I could (and that appertain wasn't much) over a weekend.

Now I'm living at the cottage and have been working again with the pump and well off and on for the past few weeks. The pump that has been on the well for over ten years is a Gould's jso5 dated 1996 and it has/had a 5gal bladder tank after the pump. (now that I have the tank out I can hear the smallest lil' air leak coming from the tank inlet..I believe that has been one of the smaller issues in the long lost past...it's pretty rusty and will need to be replaced.)

For the longest time I have been working with 3/4 black (abs-pvc?) tubing that has been dropped down the original well casing that Gramps drove down. (more on the in a bit). Gramps died around 1993 and the date of the tank tells me that I think it was installed by my step-father I think he may have also installed the drop tube/pipe down the well. For what reason I'm not exactly sure ("ease" of install?)...But I could be wrong. The drop tube was/is about 22" long and the first time I actually took it apart and pulled it out of the well there was no foot valve. At the time I didn't know anything about foot valves and that it was (MAY have been) missing. I do now. I believe the foot valve may have popped off the down tube when I first pulled it out of the well. Or I may be wrong...again.

I do know this. Grandpa did GREAT work. When he built something he did it right. My father in law...not so much. And to be honest, in the near past, my work has been on par with father in laws...not Grandpas. I'm working on changing that.

Using the old Gould's pump and the drop tube (WITHOUT a foot valve) I could not get the pump to pump water any more then what was used to prime the pump. I believe this Gould's pump may have "melted down" in a past season from running and running and running dry. Lucky for us a neighbor just gifted us a brand new Wayne ReliantOne 1/2HP Shallow Well Jet Pump a week ago. Brand new never used.

Thanks Tony.

Am I rambling? Too much information? Sorry guys.
So this season started and I'm getting serious about fixing this issues for once and for all and doing it RIGHT!!! I started with a foot valve at the end of the drop tube. To make the 3/4" foot valve fit down the well casing I had the local hardware store make me a 10" or so pipe threaded at both ends (free of charge) so I could thread one end of that section into the plastic drop tube and have a nice tight fit. It worked. But the foot valve wouldn't fit into the well casing.

Break out the grinder and ground the outer diameter of the foot valve. I first
disassembled the foot valve and packed in some paper towling around the
rubber(?) vale seat and dipped in cool water often while grinding. It fits and
it works. Fill tube with water and it stays filled. Tried...long story short?
After the foot valve was installed I tried both pumps again and could get
anything but the prime water to pump. I got a loaner pitcher pump from the
hardware store. It works. It pumps from the well but has a bit of resistance.

The above two tests with the new pump and the pither pump I did a straight shot direct from the down tube without using any of the existing pipes that lead to the older pump from the well. Pitcher pump worked new 1/2HP pump didn't. I thought maybe the down tube may have been too long. Maybe it was sitting to low in the well and not able to pick up clean water. So I shortned down tube.


I also forgot to mention that before I installed the foot valve I (and others)
thought that maybe the screen/point was clogged. I did the acid thing. Don't
know for sure if that was ever an issue but it's done now.

Yesterday for the umpteenth time I started at this rigermouro once again. After chasing my tail for a few more hours I came inside and started reading this forum again. I read the "Hand Driving a Shallow Well" sticky topic (thanks a bunch speedbump). "Drive the Casing...install pump" Then it came to me. What Would Grandpa Do? I often ask myself that question when I'm faced with modern day issues or I don't have the right tool for a job or I just want something to be simpler...Like it was back in the 1900's. What DID Grandpa do? I don't think he did the drop tube.

So I went back out to the pump house and hooked up some lengths of pipe directly to the 1 1/4" well casing (the threads were/are quite rusted from not being used for what maybe over 15 years or so.) Got the extension on and hooked up the pitcher...water. Good. We got water. Did the same with the newer pump. Same deal. WATER!!! It took a few prime cycles but the electric pump pulled/sucked it out of the well. Came back after little while and it still worked but it must have a leak in there somewhere. The longer I waited the longer it would take water to start flowing.

I'm wondering if the drop tube was installed because the well casing developed a leak/hole. Is there a way to test for that?

I'll do what it takes. Drop tube...longer or shorter. I'll do it.
Use existing well casing all by it'self...will do.
As few connections/joints as possible...check.
Want/need be to edit this entire post and start over and just type the points
that matter and not a life story? I'll do that too.

I do apologize fore rambling, talking all convoluted and such and not going in
the right order but I'm sooo frustrated. Until yesterday I felt stuck and
helpless. Darn near hopeless. Not anymore. I see light at the end of the tunnel. Water is within my grasp. I can feel it.

again...Thanks Thanks Thanks.
Need more info? I'll do that too.

BTW...
Immediately after posting this 1st post I'll write a 2nd post.
Hopefully much more to the point and concise.
That'll be for the folks that just want the facts.

A recap...
hand driven well about 25' deep, 1 1/4" casing, done in the 1950's by Grandpa, in MI sandy soil.

Plastic 3/4 drop tube and 1/2HP jet pump done around 1996.

Last 3 seasons trouble priming, bad water pressure, pump kicks on often (airleak in 5gal. bladder tank now known).

Recently...
"cleaned" point/screen with acid.
Installed foot valve on drop tube.
Shortened drop tube (too short?).
Using brand new 1 1/4 coupling.
Flushed out well with neighbors water and a garden hose.
Removed drop tube all together and pumping direct from old well casing...works...water (and some air)...looses "prime" pretty quickly.

All my connections now are only temporary but using plenty of teflon tape (three layers on threads enough?)

How to pinpoint leaks?
Will the system only keep pressure/prime when it is complete?
(including hookup to house pipes?)
I have only hooked up a hose to the pump outlet for now.
Have not completely/permanently installed pump, tank, house water lines for trouble shooting purposes.
When I do kink the hose (stop flow of water) the pump cycles on and off quickly and drastically. But I'm thinking first things first.
First get good solid stream of water from well/pump. Then worry about pump cutoff points etc.

Thanks again.
Ian

Three quarter droppipe is too small for any pump. Use the casing as the suction line. Use as few fittings as possible using pipe dope or teflon tape. Tighten well and use a brass check valve at the well. You could have leaks in the joints but it should still prime when water is called for.

Thanks speedbump...
So far as you descirbe is just what I will try. The pump house is configured in such a way that I will need two elbows to get from the well to the pump and I do have a nearly new brass checkvalve in there too.

Considering the well casing threads are so rusted I was going to use dope on it instead (or along with) the teflon tape.

After this part is licked it'll be time to connect the well/pump/tank(?) up to the house line. Before the new pump was installed there were two couplers (1 1/4" from well & 3/4" towerds house) with the new pump in and connected to the well the small/old/house coupler does not line up square to the pump outlet. Can I use some sort of flexable tubing/hose to connect the pump/tank to the house line?

Also...is a bladder tank mandatory? Can we go without one for the time being?
In case you havn't guessed money is an issue now. Other wise we all would have taken baths YEARS ago.

Thanks again.
Ian

If your going to use a pressure switch, you must have a tank. It doesn't have to be a bladder tank.
You can use a rubber hose if you like. I wouldn't, but that's just me.

Okie dokey...all righty.

Question...
To test the old jet pump pumping from a lake with just 1' of draw and it works...
doesn't mean the pump works well enough to draw up from 20' - 30'?

I pumped water from the lake yesterday and it worked pretty well. Just one prime and it was water the lawn time.

So I figured (there I go figuring again) I would install the old pump back up to the well and see if it works. After many many primes (7 or 8 so far) no water but a trickle.
I mostly did it our of couriosity see if I could keep the old pump and save the new one for a back up. I used the new pump to draw up from the well (just temporaraly) and it worked well.

Will hook up new one again (this time hopefully permamntly) and go from there.
Is this correct? "testing" from the lake and nearly at lake level is a lousy test for a jet pump?

fwiw...
I also was real worried about getting the 2 unions (out & in) to line up correctly. After reading some more forum posts on the subject you guys, thankfully, talked me out of doing that.

I'm thinking of just doing one union ( 1 1/4") between the well and the check valve/pump and after the pump/tank going with a short length of PEX and some threaded/quick-connect couplings. Sound doable? Would you do it? Would Gramps?

Thanks again ...Ian

I don't like any fittings in a suction line. If you must move it in the winter, cut the PVC pipe and glue in a coupling next year. Unions in plastic pipe are a joke in my opinion. Unless your trying to impress someone with your plumbing skills, leave unions and additional fittings out.

I don't know what's wrong with your old jet pump, could be several things.

I'm confused speedbump...again.
And HAPPY AS HECK!!!...so far.

"I don't like any fittings in a suction line."

I'm just going with one union and it is on the suction side. I'm using 1 1/4" threaded steel pipe all the way from the well to the pump (not counting the brass check valve). To fit in the pump house I do have to use 2 90 degree elbows too. Is it possible to use the steel pipe between the well and the pump and NOT use a union? Or would I need to use PVC or some other type of pipe that is glued/slipped on. (as apposed to threaded/turned on) Make sence?
That is my confusion.

This is my happy...
I have the new pump hooked up to the well. It works like a charm. Blasts up to 50psi pretty darn quick and I have a nice steady flow of water with no air that I can tell.
Joy joy!!!

I have yet to hook to the house line but after a trip to the hardware store I'll be doing that next...using (I think) some pex and couplings that will tie into the old steel pipes...I hope.

Next up is to fix all the hacked jobs and make do's that have been done inside the house for the past 3-4 years. (yes it has been that long since we reliable running water here)...Understand where all the joy comes from?
No more make do's...I wanna make Grandpa proud.

Thanks again ALL of you folks for all your posts and information that help us novices and DIYers out 24/7.

I feel a bath coming on

I'm just going with one union and it is on the suction side. I'm using 1 1/4" threaded steel pipe all the way from the well to the pump (not counting the brass check valve). To fit in the pump house I do have to use 2 90 degree elbows too. Is it possible to use the steel pipe between the well and the pump and NOT use a union? Or would I need to use PVC or some other type of pipe that is glued/slipped on. (as apposed to threaded/turned on) Make sence?

Click to expand...

If your using galvanized plumbing to the pump (which I don't recommend) you will have to use a union. Otherwise you can't make the last connection.

As for the rest of the plumbing beyond the pump and tank, you should get with the Plumbers in this Forum. That's their bag. I'm no plumber and I've never even seen Pex. So that's a whole different ballgame.