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Thread: Bonding

  1. #1

    Default Bonding

    I am trying to finish a project which will not be inspected, but want to do all work to code.
    The service is to a pedestal (200A).
    Inside the pedestal is a 175A breaker that serves a subpanel on the exterior of the residence. Also inside the pedestal is a ground rod and a supplemental horizontal rod both attached to the ground bar.

    Questions:

    At the subpanel am I required to do any grounding/bonding?
    What about the r-bar sticking out of the slab?
    What about the copper piping 50 feet away in the bath and kitchen which never enters the ground (changes to PVC).

    TIA

    Bob

  2. #2
    Licensed Electrical Contractor Speedy Petey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bgood View Post
    At the subpanel am I required to do any grounding/bonding?
    Yes.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bgood View Post
    What about the r-bar sticking out of the slab?
    If you are under the 2008 NEC then yes, you must connect to this with the proper clamp. Use a #4cu.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bgood View Post
    What about the copper piping 50 feet away in the bath and kitchen which never enters the ground (changes to PVC).
    Yes, you must bond the metallic piping system in the house. Since it is not metallic where it goes underground you can make this connection to a clod water pipe anywhere accessible.
    Again, use a #4cu for this bond.

    If you make these connections NO other electrodes or rods are required.
    Answers based on the 2008 & 2011 NEC. If you're on the '14 already I feel sorry for you.

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    Computer Programmer Bill Arden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bgood View Post
    The service is to a pedestal (200A).
    Inside the pedestal is a 175A breaker that serves a subpanel on the exterior of the residence. Also inside the pedestal is a ground rod and a supplemental horizontal rod both attached to the ground bar.
    You are also required to have both a ground and a neutral wire and the neutral wire at the residence can not be tied to the ground wire.

    I believe there is also a rule that if the residence is more than 25? feet away you have to have a ground rod at the residence as well.
    Important note Ė I donít know man made laws, just laws of physics
    Disclaimer: I'm a big fan of Darwin awards.

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    Licensed Electrical Contractor Speedy Petey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Arden View Post
    You are also required to have both a ground and a neutral wire and the neutral wire at the residence can not be tied to the ground wire.
    Depends. Under anything but the 2008 NEC a 3-wire feeder is still legal under certain circumstances. Something like this it would be pretty common to have a 3-wire feeder.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Arden View Post
    I believe there is also a rule that if the residence is more than 25? feet away you have to have a ground rod at the residence as well.
    Every structure with a feeder requires a grounding electrode. In this case it is the CCE (concrete encased electrode). NO ground rod is required.
    There is also no 25' rule like you mention.
    Answers based on the 2008 & 2011 NEC. If you're on the '14 already I feel sorry for you.

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    Electrical Contractor hiloelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speedy Petey View Post
    Depends. Under anything but the 2008 NEC a 3-wire feeder is still legal under certain circumstances. Something like this it would be pretty common to have a 3-wire feeder.
    Petey, This install is on the Load side of a disconnect at the pedestal. Which means the house is only a subpanel and 4 wires would be required.
    Thomas McGuire
    Hi-Lo Electric Inc.
    Bellevue, WA Electrician

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    Licensed Electrical Contractor Speedy Petey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hiloelectric View Post
    Petey, This install is on the Load side of a disconnect at the pedestal. Which means the house is only a subpanel and 4 wires would be required.
    Not always.
    If you have a 2005 or earlier copy of the NEC please see 250.32(B)(2).
    Answers based on the 2008 & 2011 NEC. If you're on the '14 already I feel sorry for you.

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    Electrical Contractor hiloelectric's Avatar
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    Okay I see what your talking about. However the water pipes, Gas, rebar and so on, in the house would be "Continuous Metallic Paths bonded to the grounding system in each building".

    I can see this applying to simple structures, (Garage, shed) but not a residence. Around here that would have never flown even when we were using the 2005.
    Thomas McGuire
    Hi-Lo Electric Inc.
    Bellevue, WA Electrician

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    Licensed Electrical Contractor Speedy Petey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hiloelectric View Post
    Okay I see what your talking about. However the water pipes, Gas, rebar and so on, in the house would be "Continuous Metallic Paths bonded to the grounding system in each building".
    Oh, absolutely.

    Quote Originally Posted by hiloelectric View Post
    I can see this applying to simple structures, (Garage, shed) but not a residence. Around here that would have never flown even when we were using the 2005.
    I don't see why not. A house is a "building or structure" like any other, and fits the description in 250.32 like any other.
    I certainly do understand that local amendments will override the NEC if they exist.
    Answers based on the 2008 & 2011 NEC. If you're on the '14 already I feel sorry for you.

  9. #9
    Electrical Contractor hiloelectric's Avatar
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hiloelectric View Post
    Okay I see what your talking about. However the water pipes, Gas, rebar and so on, in the house would be "Continuous Metallic Paths bonded to the grounding system in each building".
    Oh, absolutely.
    If you agree to this, then according to the 2005 you cannot run without a grounding conductor as it states in 250.32(B)(2) There are no continuous metallic paths bonded to the grounding system in each building or structure involved.

    That is how are inspectors interpret the code here.
    Thomas McGuire
    Hi-Lo Electric Inc.
    Bellevue, WA Electrician

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    "If a man speaks in the forest, and there is no woman around to hear him, is he still wrong?"


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    Licensed Electrical Contractor Speedy Petey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hiloelectric View Post
    If you agree to this, then according to the 2005 you cannot run without a grounding conductor as it states in 250.32(B)(2) There are no continuous metallic paths bonded to the grounding system in each building or structure involved.

    That is how are inspectors interpret the code here.
    That's right, no OTHER metallic paths, such as a water line, CATV or phone wire, etc.
    Nothing like this comes from the service pedestal to the house so there are no other metallic paths, so 250.32(B)(2) applies, so a 3-wire feeder is allowed.
    Answers based on the 2008 & 2011 NEC. If you're on the '14 already I feel sorry for you.

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