Replace toilet ring or whole drain?

A flange gives you a wider flat/smooth area to create the seal with the wax against a continuous waterproof path to the drain pipe. Just putting wax on top of the pipe means you only have a very narrow ridge to protect the surrounding concrete (in your case) from getting constant moisture if the seal isn't perfect. Also, (more important on a wooden subfloor), the ring on the flange gives you multiple places to anchor it so you don't put stress on the pipe if the toilet is knocked. WIth the old CI pipe you have for the toilet, using one of the flanges that rely on the gasket will be tough with all of the rough, encrusted crud in the pipe now. They work okay on a new pipe and might suffice. Note, that seal is much more important if you ever get a clog, since normally, the waste is just passing by. if you have a clog, it could be standing there for awhile and soak into any leaking areas.

As to the 1.5" line and depth of the drain line under the shower, an inspector would not accept this. If your main drain line is ultimately low enough, it would be best and proper to remove what you have, lower the whole thing to get the proper pitch, size, and depth. My guess is that the main drain line must be deep enough since the toilet works.

Thanks, Jim and everyone one else...

Okay, I chiseled down further, trying to get the bolts out. Lo and behold, there is a flange down there.

Not sure if we should:

1 - get the old one up (it's on there good) and install new one
-----a) then use spacers (will take about 4 or so?)
-----b) use two wax rings
2- use spacers on the existing one
3- use wax rings (2) on the existing one
4- install new one on top of old one (I can here yall now on this idea)

Any ideas? And which type of flange to get? I'd rather not get the one with the expanding "ring" down in the drain.

On another thread, I saw someone mention extending the drain higher. Is that possible on an old one? I'm guessing not.

jadnashua said:

As to the 1.5" line and depth of the drain line under the shower, an inspector would not accept this. If your main drain line is ultimately low enough, it would be best and proper to remove what you have, lower the whole thing to get the proper pitch, size, and depth. My guess is that the main drain line must be deep enough since the toilet works.

Click to expand...

Jim, the main drain line is very low - and buried deep. The galvanized pipe actually slopes downward ever so slightly to get to the main drain line (which is about 6 feet away, maybe?).

We're going to test it later with a hose and see if it leaks. If not, we're leaving it. If it does, then we'll chisel everything up and call in a plumber to finish it. Again, it's not out of pride - we're NOT enjoying this. It's out of financial concerns that we're trying to do whatever we can ourselves...

New problem...

Ooops.... I ran the washer a little while ago while taking a break. I just went down and there are suds on TOP of "stuffing" I had in the toilet drain, and the concrete is WET all around it. Maybe THIS is where our leak is coming from?!?

So how to fix it? Anyone?

You may have a pitch problem, the washer line could be 1.5" and should be 2", or you may have a partial clog somewhere in the line.

You're at a point where you need to decide how many times you want to remodel this bathroom. You can hack it the way your neighbor suggests, or you can break the concrete out and find out what you really have. Just because the flange is there, doesn't mean what's underneath it is any good. I wouldn't trust any of it after seeing how the shower was installed with both the drain and the liner being wrong. This isn't meant to sound mean, but its rather just reality. I hate to see people make mistakes and constantly have to redo projects. While you have the help here, make sure everything is right.

Break out all the concrete surrounding the toilet "flange" and shower drain. Take the excavation for the shower drain all the way back to where it connects to the main line. You can do it by hand or with a breaker hammer (not the same as small chipping hammer) or you can saw it with a masonry saw and break the concrete off along that line. I like the latter as it leaves a nice joint for the new concrete to meet with (go over that when you get there). After that's all done and everything is cleared out, come back and post some pictures and we'll get you going in the right direction.

I know it sounds like a lot of work, and it is, but there is no way the inspector will pass anything you've planned so far.

Wow.... as tired as I am right now, completely chiseling/hammering up concrete is not on my radar. My husband and I just discussed it, and I think it may take a day or two to sink in (no pun intended), if ever.

Interestingly enough, I went to Lowe's tonight (went to HD earlier today and knew much more than the salespeople trying to help me), and found most of what I was looking for. Two contractors in the plumbing aisle helped me tremendously - much more help than the actual employees. And, they recommended the same thing you did: just dig it all up and replace the main sewer line.

Truth is, our house sits on an alley along one side - 4 ft from the side of the house that has the plumbing stack running down (on the outside) from upstairs and into the ground. We assume that our main sewer line is buried outside b/t our house and the alley (no contractor/plumber has ever laid eyes on the actual 4" drain, and assume it's "out there".) And, our house sits right on the sidewalk/street, with the sewer manhole cover literally 10 ft or so from our front steps. So most of the work would be outside, and it wouldn't go far.

Having said all that, we still don't want to do it if it doesn't need to be done. Replacing the 1 1/2" pipe that the shower drain connects to is more feasible. But, chances are if we're going to replace that pipe and go that far, it only makes sense to replace the main line as well.

It's a question of how far we want to go right now. I'd be fine putting it all off a few years (the pipe/drain stuff) and replacing it later when we have more money and more time, but I do not want this shower pan that we are going to build (and build it right) to be done only to be ripped up in a few years.

On that note, we're going to take a break from thinking about it and watch our TiVo'd episode of 24 from Monday night...

ETA: Okay, back for a minute: We're not trying to cut corners or just get it done b/c we're impatient - we need to move into our basement ASAP for financial reasons, and rent out the rest of our house. It's the option we've chosen over selling it in the current market. A good compromise on the plumbing issues would be to fix it best as we can right now, and put off building our walk-in shower with bench, etc - with a nice functioning pan, only to risk having to tear it out later. Perhaps the prudent thing to do now would be to put a corner prefab shower unit in that we can pull out/sell when we have the time/money/energy to tackle fixing the pipes the way they should be done...

My advice get one of these set-up outside:



AND CALL A PLUMBER!

Even a prefab shower needs a 2" drain, which you don't have. It sounds a lot more involved than it really is. Breaking the concrete up is therapeutic too. There is no reason to have to break any concrete up outside that I can think of. All your connections should be somewhat nearby to the drains themselves and the only one you have to chase back is the shower line. From your pictures, it looks like less than 4 feet between the two drains, which isn't a big area to break up.

kingsotall said:

My advice get one of these set-up outside:

AND CALL A PLUMBER!

Click to expand...

They need a shower though...One of the guys I worked with built a temporary shower outside with some 4X8 Sheets of plywood. He had a hot and cold hose bib outside, ran those lines to a couple of screw valves, and bam! shower with a view of the stars at night!

I have a complete temporary bath facility to use for when I do my upcoming planned major plumbing work......it's even mobile.......A truck camper!!!!

I measured the shower drain. The drain is 2", then connects to a 2 1/2" trap, which reconnects to a 2" galvanized pipe. Not sure what the thinking was there... Wouldn't be too hard to get up the concrete and replace the trap.

We snaked the shower drain and the toilet drain today. We snaked the toilet drain all the way to the street: maybe a belly in there? But no obstructions. The shower drain was a little more difficult but no obstructions there either. It does drain, slowly, then when you stop pouring water in, the water remains in the drain - level with the top of the trap. So if water remains in the trap, then it makes since - with the height of the shower drain - that the water would be seen there. The drain is just a tad bit lower (or maybe the same height?) as the drop of that trap. IMHO it should be higher, which is is once the rest of the drain mechanism is screwed in on top of the shower pan/tile.

Thanks to those of you still following and giving advice.

I take back my previous post - didn't realize that pipes are not named by their outer diameter measures. So there is 2" trap connecting to 1 1/2" pipe. My bad.

Something else I learned from reading all of this: the shower is draining - slowly. I said it wasn't draining before because I could see water. Now I know you're supposed to see water, but down a little lower than where we're seeing it, which is even with the drop of the drain.

My husband finished hammering up the concrete so we could: see what's going on down there, maybe add higher pipe where shower drain goes, and probably move it a few inches. The first picture below shows the whole "contraption".

Then we removed the drain/trap from the steel pipe. No way around it - it's gotta be replaced... ... There's probably about 1/2" of clear space in there - maybe. At first we thought it just extended a few inches into the pipe and we would just "clean it out". But it goes way in there and it's caked on. That's the 2nd picture. (Could this be a lead pipe?)

The third picture shows where we removed the concrete around the toilet drain down to the old flange. By the way, this has an elbow (?) about 1" or 1 1/2" below the surface. So the "twist-n-set" flanges - or anything that goes down in there - won't work b/c it will block it.

Next order of business: hammer up the concrete and replace the steel pipe. Question: what does this connect to, and how do we connect it? We're assuming it connects to the drain under the toilet. If so, that drain looks like it would break if we messed with it.

I am seriously trying to talk my husband into replacing the line from our house to the sewer. Our neighbor (retired plumber) told us that it is under our house. We thought it ran beside it, but he has worked on the plumbing many houses in our neighborhood, including the two next to ours which are identical in layout. (He also grew up in the neighborhood and played in our house as a kid, and remembers when our basement was excavated/finished in the early 60s). So hammering up the floor would be in order. But it's probably only 20' to 25' feet of pipe to replace. Our basement is bare right now but we're going to put down carpet, paint, etc. I would rather do it now and get it done than do it 5 to 10 yrs down the road. We may pay for a plumber to put a camera down there to help with our decision.

So... you guys have (slowly) convinced me of the things that need to be done. At a minimum, replace the whole shower drain/trap/pipe and fix the toilet flange (somehow). Replacing the main line has yet to be determined at this point.

Thanks alot.

Not sure if anyone is still reading (it has gotten long), but regarding the toilet: is it possible to just replace the drain from the toilet to the main line, without replacing the main line? Here's what I'm thinking:

1) hammer up around shower drain and toilet drain, all the way to where they each meet the main line in our house
2) replace each of the drains for the shower/toilet
3) ensure that each drain will be placed correctly height-wise for the finished bathroom floor

That is alot less work than replacing the whole line from our house to the street, which is what I thought some of you were suggesting. Is that what you actually were suggesting, or just the drains leading to the line in our house?

Thanks, if anyone is still following this...

ETA: Found a great site this morning to recommend for newbies like me: http://www.cdc.gov/nceh/publications/books/housing/cha09.htm

Replace the toilet and shower runs to the main line. See what the condition of things are at that time. You may want to have someone run a camera through the line to the street. This would let you evaluate its condition. If it has bellies or pitch problems, or has holes, replace it. Recheck with your plumber neighbor and see what the condition was of those around you...this should give you a feel for what yours is likely to be. If they've all replaced theirs for good cause, You may want to at least get the part under the house replaced before you finish the basement off. You can do the rest later if it becomes necessary or you have more funds available.

As said above, you don't have to do anything with the main line unless its damaged. But at the very least, you need to replace the shower line back to wherever it connects into a larger line, and replace the riser and or elbow of the toilet drain. Nobody can tell until that is excavated out like the shower line is. I second having some camera work done to make sure the main drain line is still intact.

Just got off the phone with a plumbing company. They're coming Monday morning to send a camera down the sewer line. $300...

We'll continue to work on hammering up the inside, so I may post some more pics before then.

Thanks so much for all the advice.

Hammered-up floor

My husband worked this weekend to hammer up some more of the basement bathroom floor. I've attached a picture below of the existing shower drain pipe and where it connects to the toilet drain (and a pic of my hero doing the work). The flanges you see are not attached - just options we were considering and had laid around the "opening". By the way, the toilet drain angles towards the side of the house like it may connect up to the main line outside? We're hoping - it sure would make it easier to replace. The neighbors' homes like ours have their main line inside, but ours was the first one of the three built (in 1907, 1908, and 1909 respectively) - as a prototype - and may be different. For example, our stack is on the outside but theirs are both on the inside.

(If the floor looks wet it's because he kept it damp to reduce the dust.)

Plumber came this morning and sent a camera down the drain. Pretty cool - we got a DVD of it...

No roots or cracks that he noticed. Alot of it was under water so we couldn't see much. There is a "belly" about six feet in, and the slope is bad or nearly non-existent until it gets closer to the street, then it drains better.

They are recommending - at a minimum (in addition to replacing the cracked stack outside) - is to install an ejector pump to help overcome the slope issue. At the street, he got a depth of about 3 1/2 feet for the drain which doesn't leave any more room for slope. He said alot of houses in our neighborhood have the same issue. He is going to work up a detailed estimate with several options and get back with us, to see what will work and how much money we could save by doing some of it ourselves (such as demolition/digging up).

He did find that the main line runs outside of the house at the stack for about 6 or 8 feet, then re-enters for about 10 feet where it then exits under the front porch and heads to the street. So part of the basement floor would have to be jackhammered if we replace the main drain. The main drain is corroded but does not *have* to be replaced now, according to the plumber. With all the work we're doing in the basement, though, we'd rather go ahead and do it now if we can swing it.

As for the toilet drain, what the plumber speculates is that when the basement was excavated circa 1960, they just cut off the top part of the toilet drain (may have been a floor drain back then for a laundry room?) to make it level with new floor level. He did mention replacing it and relaying all of the basement bath plumbing. And adding AAV's in some places, which are accepted here by code (I actually had one of the city inspectors recommend one to me a few weeks ago for adding a kitchen sink in the basement). The plumber said he would add these but only because everything ties into the main vent already.

I mentioned to him that we're also replacing the washer/dryer with a new HE front-loading unit that will use less water (15 gallons per load as opposed to 45 gallons per load) and that the new washer should help reduce the amount of water being drained into the basement "system".

Any thoughts/ideas on his recommendations? Thanks...

While the new WM use less water, they pump it out much faster, so if there are any inadequacies, they'll show up.