Bending type M rigid copper

hj · Jul 19, 2005

fitting

NIce job, but a tee with a drop ear elbow above it and one below it would have done exactly the same thing and been a lot easier than making the loop.

Mr. Overkill · Jul 19, 2005

Thanks

I only did the loop because moen specified it in the install specs.

-David

Sponsor · 2022-01-29T12:20:58-0800

Mr. Overkill · Jul 20, 2005

HJ-

Are you saying that the loop is worthless the way I did it (drop L's instead of drop T's), or I just could have done it your way also, or your way is just as good as a loop with drop T's?

I'm confused.

By the way I reconfigured piping systed so I don't need to use the soft copper.

-David

hj · Jul 21, 2005

loop

When Moen recommends a loop, they are referring to one that basically circles the shower area, not one localized like yours. If you wanted to get "picky" that loop, because of the extra pipe and fittings, could have a lower flow than the one I described, although you would have to have very precise instruments to measure the difference.

Mr. Overkill · Jul 22, 2005

HJ-

Here is a copy of the design guide I went by. I went by the picture, to late now.

The fine print to the left says "A pressure balancing loop must always be used with body sprays to allow for equal supply of water to each spray".

Here is also a link to pics of my final plumbing posted on a thread at John bridges site.

http://johnbridge.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=279339#post279339

-David

Plumguy · Jul 22, 2005

Always follow manufacturer's spec's just like you did! The job looks good, I only question why you used drop ear 90's as opposed to 1/2c x 1/2 f tee's. It would make the pressure loop more balanced as shown by moen.

Installing a drop ear above and below a tee is just plain bad advice!! You'll be glad you did not make that change! Whenever someone wants you to go against manufacturer's spec's have them prove it! Chances are, you'll never see any proof!!

Mr. Overkill · Jul 23, 2005

Plumguy-

Thanks for your reply,

There is no supplier of that type of fitting in my small town. Would I be better off to order online and redo with the proper fitting or would the differance in balanced pressure so little it wouldn't be worth my sweat and heartache of redoing.

-David

Plumguy · Jul 23, 2005

You should call Moen and ask them!

hj · Jul 23, 2005

Moen

That drawing is a classic example of an engineer with a little knowledge and a lot of time on his hands. The ONLY time a pressure balancing loop has any advantage is when you make a feed connection to both sides of the loop, not to one side and make the water circulate through the loop. If you had several heads on the same circuit, but mounted on different wall, then putting a tee at the valve and looping in both directions so the feed supplies both the first and last ones would have been beneficial. Doing it Moen's way delivers absolutely no benefits and took more time and money. But since it does not create any problems and is done already, live with it.

Plumguy · Jul 23, 2005

hj said:
That drawing is a classic example of an engineer with a little knowledge and a lot of time on his hands. The ONLY time a pressure balancing loop has any advantage is when you make a feed connection to both sides of the loop, not to one side and make the water circulate through the loop. If you had several heads on the same circuit, but mounted on different wall, then putting a tee at the valve and looping in both directions so the feed supplies both the first and last ones would have been beneficial. Doing it Moen's way delivers absolutely no benefits and took more time and money. But since it does not create any problems and is done already, live with it.

I don't particularly care for Moen and maybe it has to do with their engineers having a little knowledge and a lot of time on their hands. I guess that is why they never put you on hold when you call the tech line trying to fix their junk! Maybe, they are hiring and you could turn things around in their design dept.

But, regardless of your'e knowledge do you think you should advise someone to adapt their installation away from the manufacturer's engineered design. You know just as well as I do that is a big no no! It voids all warranty and if you can't post your'e stamped engineered design as proof then I certainly don't think your'e ego warrants a change in the installation!

hj · Jul 24, 2005

Moen

It voids what warranty? And Moen puts me on hold many times when I need a part, usually a Monticello handle that had to be destroyed to unscrew it from the valve body, again because of some engineer's bright idea as to how to make a faucet handle.

Plumguy · Jul 24, 2005

Manufacturer specs override all codes(at least here in MA and our codes are pretty stringent)! If installation specs are not followed it voids warranty. If you install something that does'nt work properly and if a rep comes out to check it and it is not installed to their specs warranty is void. Believe me, I don't defend or as previously posted on other posts care for engineers. However, legally you can't change their design or product specs without approval regardless of your'e ability or experience. We don't agree or follow that all the time but when the sh@t hits the fan that's what it boils down to!!!

Bending type M rigid copper

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