Water Supply PSI

Redwood said:

Most do limit it to 80 PSI...

The only one that I can think of that doesn't is GSOPC 2009.



They could also claim it was an undisclosed fault and demand recourse after the sale... Unlikely but possible.

Click to expand...

Redwood what the heck is GSOPC 2009?

SewerRatz said:

Redwood what the heck is GSOPC 2009?

Click to expand...

Gary Slusser's Own Plumbing Code 2009

80 PSI it is! However, exceeding the pressure slightly for a small period of time before getting the new PRV is probably not going to be noticed or, cause problems...

Gary,
On the plumbing side, it's a safe bet that a plumbing inspector will be requiring a pressure reducer if it's over 80 PSI

And if a reducer is installed, an expansion tank and water hammer arrestors.


The one on the left is for a washer.
The one in the center can be soldered onto a tee.
The one on the right can be used inline like for a lav supply or an icemaker line.

Code would have them on quck closing valves like
Washer
Icemaker
Dishwasher

And if there is no inspector breathing down your neck, it's still a good idea. There are reasons somethings become plumbing code.

I can see inspectors in urban areas enforcing codes but my experience is in rural areas and small towns and villages where there were no permits or inspections. Areas that actually make up most of this country.

If there are no permits and inspections, are there codes, probably yes in a desk somewhere but, people refuse to put up with such requirements. Here we have any number of urban plumbers that live and die by the codes because their work is constantly being inspected. We have differences of opinions because of those differences, especially when we don't know where the person is from. I try to keep things on a national and general basis and IMO others tend to keep it local to their area; or the code they are under. It's like the different speed limits from one state to another and region of the country to another region and yet someone talking as if there is only one speed limit across the whole country.

And there are 5 national codes, and they do not all agree, if any agree with another at all. Which if there was agreement, IMO there wouldn't be 5 national codes.

There are 5 National codes and some States do not even follow them, like Illinois. We have our own code that does not agree with the other 5 National codes in parts. As for the rural areas of Illinois the plumbers out there really push for code enforcement. Its one of the reasons I drive 4 to 6 hours to Southern Illinois for my continued education class. Out in the rural areas the classes teach the code and the updates to it. Where the classes up near Chicago are more or less a 4 hour sales pitch.

I can't believe you came back with yet another reply!

Gary Slusser said:

I can see inspectors in urban areas enforcing codes but my experience is in rural areas and small towns and villages where there were no permits or inspections. Areas that actually make up most of this country.

If there are no permits and inspections, are there codes, probably yes in a desk somewhere but, people refuse to put up with such requirements. Here we have any number of urban plumbers that live and die by the codes because their work is constantly being inspected. We have differences of opinions because of those differences, especially when we don't know where the person is from. I try to keep things on a national and general basis and IMO others tend to keep it local to their area; or the code they are under. It's like the different speed limits from one state to another and region of the country to another region and yet someone talking as if there is only one speed limit across the whole country.

And there are 5 national codes, and they do not all agree, if any agree with another at all. Which if there was agreement, IMO there wouldn't be 5 national codes.

Click to expand...

Gary,
You are correct! There are a multitude of codes used out there. In addition to the major codes different areas have adopted different versions of the code. Connecticut for instance adopted the 2003 IPC with local amendments. In addition to the major codes and the different years there are also a number of states, counties and cities that have their own codes.

I sure do agree with you that it would be nice to have one national code like the electricians use with charts that cover additional concerns such as frost depth and seismic regions etc. but that is beyond my control. It seems largely controled by politics and PAC money. The developers, manufacturers, unions, inspectors, politicians, code organizations and lord knows who else is in there muckin it up grabbin power and money however they can.

In this forum we do try to give generic advice that would fly under most codes that we know of and in fact most of us regulars over the years have gotten to know quite a bit about other codes even though we have never worked under them. In addition we also advise posters to check the advice with their local inspector and refuse to sanction proposals that will not fly under code.

To say that code does not apply in rural areas of the US is completely false. No matter where you are in the US there is probably a code that applies in that area. Permits and inspections may be an entirely different matter. There may be rural areas where permits and inspections are not required and even in those areas the applicable plumbing code should be followed. This isn't rocket science and big brother! It is necessary to have plumbing systems that work and provide a system that does not affect the health of the homeowner and family or, neighbors. Without adhering to the code you can rest assured we would open a pandoras box of diseases that we have not seen in hundreds of years.

Gary, If you want to park your tin house on wheels in a place where they have the well drilled next to the outhouse you go right ahead. But, if I come by to visit please make sure that you have some Poland Springs Bottled water in sealed containers for me to drink. I'll pass on touching anything that contacts the water...

One of the things the codes do seem to agree on is the 80 PSI limit for system pressure. So why don't you just give it a rest before I start paying closer attention to the Pump, Well, & Softener Forum... Your attitude here is making me suspect to the advice that might be given out there...



Give it a rest!

OK, there are codes everywhere that say 80 psi max or a PRV is "required".

The fact is they are not followed by millions of people doing their own plumbing.

Another fact is that many plumbers everywhere want to protect their trade, income and livelihood from DIYers. Which is a lost cause.

IMO they, the plumbers, would do themselves better by adapting to the DIYer times and stop being 'big brother' and reduce their stress so their health would benefit.

I cautioned the OP about what can happen with pressure that is too high. Then we spun off into a discussion of codes which may be way past when they should have been discussed because IMO that's how we got where we are with 5 national codes and a wide mix of very different local or other state codes etc. thrown in and in reality, they more often than not are not enforced outside the inspectors' usually urban territory anywhere at any time.

Is there a code if it is not enforced.... technically yes but IMO not in reality.

Why is that if the code is so important? I think it is because the code can not be legally enforced on a DIYer unless it has effected someones' health (that is after the fact, meaning the damage has to have been done). That's because there is no record (permit) nor inspection of the work done. Are we speeding if we don't get caught but admit to someone we were over the limit and give them the time and date?

IMO the codes aren't ALL important or meant to protect the "health of the nation". Like this 80 psi code or a PRV must be installed. No one without a PRV and more than 80 psi is going to get sick or die. They may get wet if a pipe bursts as they go to shut off a valve. But today many wouldn't be smart enough to shut off the water so they may run out in the road or street screaming and something could injure them I guess... Well, there is that emotional distress thing too. Can the DIYer that didn't install the PRV be tried?

IMO the above is why so many people thumb their noses at the codes and that doesn't get into the thought process of those people that it is THEIR house and they'll do as they damned well please and suffer the consequences of their actions if it doesn't go right. And if it does go bad, they'll deal with it then themselves; a true DIYer!

That sounds a lot like the old but currently and swiftly disappearing "American way" to me. And I'm all for it independence frankly; especially in rural areas, for a number of important reasons (mention that and we can discuss it).

Redwood, lighten up man, you'll live longer.

Thank you Gary I am not as good at explaining things,but you did good.

I wouldn't be giving good advise if it was only good for rural areas without plumbing codes.

And to recommend Third World practices as the American Way is ridiculous. It's the plumbing codes that sets us apart, the code of the West is the American Way. It's the reason our water is the best in the world.

Years ago at church, a missionary gave a talk on Africa. He said that often you would see pictures of skinny kids with bloated bellies, and the ad would mention a food crises. He said it wasn't food, it was the water. Many of the small children didn't live to be adults because of the diseases they picked up from the water. The bloated bellies were from sickness, and the thin bodies. He said that if good water could be provided, it would be the best thing that could happen for them.

Most of the time, when someone asks a question, it's based on the expectation that there is a plumbing code, and what is required.
When a home is sold, many of these things need to be fixed anyway.

90 PSI isn't a big deal, I agree.
But if you do drop it down with a pressure reducer, two things happen.
The PRV on the water heater can start popping, and you increase water hammer.
That's just common knowledge.
That's why the plumbing code requires the fixes right up front.
Or you could leave it to helpless homeowners to guess and spend money with their own fixes, which to me is a bigger waste of time and money.

We already know the problems, and the fixes for the problems.
Any plumber will know how to fix a homeowners problems.
And Gary, it's not our problem, it's the homeowners.

When my engineer friend had water hammer, with his pressure reduced home, it was a simple fix to just add a hammer arrestor to the ice maker line. I realize that you wouldn't want to bother with a $15 part.
But it was waking him up at night. And this is a guy that is designing our airplanes. We don't want that guy sleepy at work.
Now to get the engineer to put on the stupid part, wait, I had "given" him the part and he couldn't believe it would fix the problem so he left it in a drawer and kept asking more questions about water hammer, like somehow there was some more difficult reason for his water hammer and his sleepiness the next day on the job.
It wasn't until his plumber father in law from South Dakota, who by the way plumbs without permits, even though they are required there, found o out he already had the hammer arrestor in the drawer and installed it for him. He knew right away it was the right thing to install.
And now, the engineer that designs air planes can sleep at night, and the world is a better place because he finally had installed the friggin water hammer arrestor and I slept better because I no longer had to listen to him bitch about his pipes banging in the middle of the night.

Heh heh heh
Yea them engineers can be fart smellers
Specially when they think the code is for other people

I think Terry and Redwood give out pretty good advice.
Seems like they want to help the DIYers do the work the right way.

Funny thing bout out houses next to the well.
They both still work but the water tastes funny and everybody gits sick a lot.
We had a neighbor here that was too smart fer his britches and put the outhouse next to the well.
Now he just sits around all day with gold and silver paint on his face.
I guess the poop went to his head.

Hillbilly you just made my day.

Gary Slusser said:

OK, there are codes everywhere that say 80 psi max or a PRV is "required".

The fact is they are not followed by millions of people doing their own plumbing.

Click to expand...

Here in Illinois as I explained in my post before unlicensed people are only allowed to do minor plumbing repairs. Yes many will not get caught at the time of the job. But many have been caught when it is time to sell their home, or the city does an inspection on water meters, or sump pumps to ensure they are not discharging into the sanitary sewer system. I have had a home owner call me to repipe their home in copper cause they went ahead and did it all in CPVC which did not meet the code in their town. He got caught when he complained to the city that his water pressure was lacking. They told him the city's working pressure was 65 PSI it might be that his old galvanized pipes need replacing. HE informed they they have been replaced a month ago. So they fined him for doing work with out a permit, and license. Also turned the water off to his home till it was corrected.

Gary Slusser said:

Another fact is that many plumbers everywhere want to protect their trade, income and livelihood from DIYers. Which is a lost cause.

IMO they, the plumbers, would do themselves better by adapting to the DIYer times and stop being 'big brother' and reduce their stress so their health would benefit.

Click to expand...

We are not trying to protect our trade, we ARE] protecting the health of the Nation. We go to school for 4 to 5 years while apprenticing under a plumber to learn the trade and plumbing codes, then we are tested. With your line of thinking Doctors are only trying to protect their trade, income and livelihood from DIYers as well. Guess what happens when a person gets caught practicing medicine with out a license.

Gary Slusser said:

I cautioned the OP about what can happen with pressure that is too high. Then we spun off into a discussion of codes which may be way past when they should have been discussed because IMO that's how we got where we are with 5 national codes and a wide mix of very different local or other state codes etc. thrown in and in reality, they more often than not are not enforced outside the inspectors' usually urban territory anywhere at any time.

Is there a code if it is not enforced.... technically yes but IMO not in reality.

Why is that if the code is so important? I think it is because the code can not be legally enforced on a DIYer unless it has effected someones' health (that is after the fact, meaning the damage has to have been done). That's because there is no record (permit) nor inspection of the work done. Are we speeding if we don't get caught but admit to someone we were over the limit and give them the time and date?

Click to expand...

It is sad that when a DIYer does not follow code and ends up killing people in their town. For example some one comes up with this great idea on how to flush out old pesticide drums but their idea causes a cross connection and the pesticide gets loose into the potable water in a 3 block radius, over 25 people died due to this DIYer not following code. If you ever noticed many that give advice here inform the people they should get a permit for their job to ensure its done right. Oh and if no one dies or any damage happened from the DIYer not following code, again when they sell the home they will get caught and fined.

Gary Slusser said:

IMO the codes aren't ALL important or meant to protect the "health of the nation". Like this 80 psi code or a PRV must be installed. No one without a PRV and more than 80 psi is going to get sick or die. They may get wet if a pipe bursts as they go to shut off a valve. But today many wouldn't be smart enough to shut off the water so they may run out in the road or street screaming and something could injure them I guess... Well, there is that emotional distress thing too. Can the DIYer that didn't install the PRV be tried?

Click to expand...

He can be fined for not following the code, for not getting a permit and not being a licensed plumber. CODES ARE IMPORTANT AND ARE MEANT TO PROTECT THE HEALTH OF THE NATION. To high of water pressure will cause to high of water velocity in the water piping and can leach off the material of the pipe. Ever hear of copper poisoning? It will also cause premature failure of the piping system.

Gary Slusser said:

IMO the above is why so many people thumb their noses at the codes and that doesn't get into the thought process of those people that it is THEIR house and they'll do as they damned well please and suffer the consequences of their actions if it doesn't go right. And if it does go bad, they'll deal with it then themselves; a true DIYer!

Click to expand...

Let me point you to the above paragraph about a DIYer killing 25 people in their community. A true DIYer!! = a True KILLER! If they really want to do what they damn please then they do not need city water or sewer. If they are on a well then they do not need running water in the home, we do not want them to contaminate the aquifer. Many owners on a private well think hey its my well so its my water I can do what I want. They fail to realize that they share the aquifer with others. I had a subdivision that was on septic and well still. One day I got a call a lady said her whole house filter kept clogging with in days of changing it. Turns out some one was leaching raw sewerage into the aquifer. Over 70 homes where affected.

Gary Slusser said:

That sounds a lot like the old but currently and swiftly disappearing "American way" to me. And I'm all for it independence frankly; especially in rural areas, for a number of important reasons (mention that and we can discuss it).

Redwood, lighten up man, you'll live longer.

Click to expand...

Redwood does not need to lighten up. We need to make sure people do not go back to the dark ages of water quality, and the only way to ensure that is to have plumbing codes. Yes there is many different plumbing codes from state to state county to county, city to city. But guess what their is good reason for it. What is good for Texas will not work well in Chicago.. heck what is good in Springfield IL will not work in Chicago. For example the Illinois code says the water service needs to be at least 36" deep. If Chicago did not amend the code to say the service needs to be at least 60" deep we would have lots of frozen water mains.

SewerRatz said:

Redwood does not need to lighten up. We need to make sure people do not go back to the dark ages of water quality, and the only way to ensure that is to have plumbing codes.

Click to expand...

Thank You Mr. Ratz.

I'm a big fan of...

"If your not going to do it right, why do it at all."

Anything less than that and you are just a Hack!

Hack's should not be plumbing or, dispensing bad advice.

Gotta get my two cents in here because I can never resist a good fight.

That a town may not have an inspector or permits does not mean that there is no code. What it does mean is that the the state plumbing inspectors are required to enforce the code throughout the state. The code applies everywhere. The implications and importance of the code is not so much for the homeowner but for future buyers of the home when the resident hack moves out. when the home inspection is done, things that are non compliant will need to be made so. And for the last time. We licensed plumbers are not trying to "protect" our jobs, or screw anyone out of their money. We are charged with the duty to "Protect the Health of the Nation" It's what we do and who we are.

I have around 85 psi at this house & around the same at the last house
I learned not to leave hose faucets turned on as the hose will not take the pressure long term

Whats a PRV valve look like?
Where would it be installed?
I'm pretty sure I have nothing like that before or right after the meter
The pipes & main shut off valve (front of house) were replaced by a plumber about 3-4 years ago. I had him run 3/4" feed to a new bathroom on the 2nd floor. Well, actually I requested that.
Instead he ran 3/4" to a point in the basement near the back of the house, tied into the 1/2", then 2' away went to 3/4" to the 2nd floor

Terry, all that I said after your arrestor post was replying to Redwood, there was nothing in either post about what you said. I quoted Redwood from page one and then deleted the quote as I replied to it and his post above my last one. That makes it look as if I was replying to you but I wasn't.

Yes America has good water and so do most other developed countries. It was in England that the discovery of sewage contaminated water caused and led to the spread of many deadly diseases. It was a very contaminated hand dug bucket on a rope well in London. I believe that discovery was in the 1600 or 1700s. Eventually, once people would accept the concept which took many years, the discovery led to the total separation of sewage and drinking water and modern plumbing.

Third world countries still today suffer greatly from contaminated water. I know a bit about the different types of wells that are being 'installed' in those countries. Providing clean water is a great improvement in the quality of life.

Sorry for the confusion.

Dave,
The PRV would be installed at some point after the meter usually before the feeds split off to different fixtures. It could be in a curb box if that is where the meter is located or, inside the house.

It would look similar to this.



Installing a PRV creates a closed system and makes the installation of a thermal expansion tank on the water heater necessary.

I had a job some time ago (Back when I still had to do overnite standby) where a customer about and hour away had a fill valve on a toilet fail. The water because os the high pressure came into the toilet tank much faster than the water could go out through the overflow tube of the toilet. They were unable to turn off the water and by the time I drove there it was very ugly. I'm talking major damage to the house.