I own an apartment block and would like to install more efficient toilets. I read terry love's toilet forum which really likes the toto drake and hesitatingly accepts the as cadet 3 because of potential quality control issues. I am reading the february 2009 map tests and the toto "ecodrake" rf rates at 500 while the cadet rates at 1000. Given the ratings from the forum I expected the reverse. Does the cadet work better than the drake?
Last edited by Terry; 04-07-2009 at 08:58 PM.
MAP rating of over 500 are meanless and the material they use to do the rate is a joke anyway. Do yourself a favor and get the Toto Drake. It will be the last toilet you will ever have to buy for this bathroom.
The MAP rating isn't everything, but it is a good indicator of flushing power. Ideally, the toilet shouldn't ever flush much more than 250g, but we all know that we do not live in an ideal world. If you absolutely had to flush 250g, would you want a toilet rated 250, or 1000? Heck, it's the American way - more is always better.
Anything over 500 is pointless.
Jamie and I went to a lecture for Green Plumbers in Seattle, with John Koeller explaining their testing method.
He said that anything over 500 was pointless. Over and over again that point was made.
He explained that manufacturers were tweaking the bowls to pass the test, often at the detriment of other needed functions.
But he has no method for testing what is missing.
The testing method originally was invented by Toto and now is being done by John, but with a twist.
The original testing was done with miso bean paste. This way you could see marks left in the bowl by the testing.
The paste also had some stickiness to it that would cling.
It also floated better, more like the real deal.
To save costs, the MaP decided to wrap the paste in plastic, making them slip through better, with no more marking of the bowls.
Since they were now heavier, they didn't represent floating waste anymore. Toilets tested with the plastic wrapped paste was now getting better test results.
That being said, 500 is the good number.
For example, the old paste method would give the elongated Toto Ultimate a rating of 325 grams.
I installed one in my home for two years, and only plugged it once during that time.
That was in a home with weekend gatherings of 30 plus people, and occasional parties of 100 or more.
I also installed four of these in the church I go to. No problems at the church either.
The church previously had 5.0 gallon American Standard Cadet toilets. The Cadets plugged so often that the assistant minister, wanted to find another job. He hated going into plunge the womens bathroom. He was the only man there during the day.
We installed a few Toto Drakes, Toto Ultramax's and Toto Ultimates there. Problem solved.
A toilet with a higher than 500 gram rating, the Kohler Cimarron plugged often in my home. That one is now in my daughter home, and she wants it replaced. Here main bath has the Drake, and that one doesn't plug. The Cimarron has sharp turns in the trapway. It may work pretty well in the consistent MaP testing, but in the "real world" it plugs more.
MaP testing uses plastic lined, 4"x 3/4" missiles. They will zip through just about anything.
My research is based on selling and installing three thousand toilets a year.
And home testing. We install these in homes and track performance.
The only report that has long term reporting.
Wait, it's Sunday morning, time for my coffee and newspaper.
TOTO manufactures many of their products in America
If Koeller believes that anything over 500g is meaningless, why would he run the test up to 1000g? It takes twice as long and costs twice as much. Seems like a huge waste of time. Can you find the quote you were referring to?
He has said it over and over again. And he has said that for years.
You should really go to one of his lectures sometime, like Jame and I did.
That, and talk to him on the phone, that's what I did.
Both he and I agree on that point.
TOTO, the people that invented the test still stand by their method as the most accurate.
At this point tom, you are only arguing with yourself.
Tomw the homeowner has installed three toilets. An expert in his own mind.
Terry Installs and or sells three thousand toilets a year.
TOTO manufactures many of their products in America
I've got 40 units (houses & apts ~59 toilets) configured in about 21, 45-year-old buildings.. Two years ago, I began aggressively exchanging the original toilets from them as I had toilet problems, or for tenants who needed taller toilets. On unit turn-over, it's automatic to replace them, as part of a full remodeling. I also replace the supply valves, and add the braided lines at the same time, and using all Kohler, Cimmaron elongated bowl, comfort height toilets. My service calls have dropped from about 3 or 4/wk. two years ago, to zero with the new toilets. Well, almost that good, I have some lines that aren't sloped right, but otherwise it's pretty tight...
I got a new maintainance man a couple months ago, who told me about the Toto Drake. We installed one, but weren't entirely happy with it. The "footprint" stands it further away from the wall, and out into the room further than the Cimmaron, and the tank lid (Toto) doesn't seem to fit as securely as the Cimmarons. It wants to slide around on the tank. Also the tank mount to the bowl seems less secure, and I had problems with an installer "tester," leaning back against it, and breaking the seal, causing it to leak.
I read the other user reports, but I have no problems with my Kohlers. Thus far I've installed about 28-30 in two years. No complaints. I have the Kohler's in my own house, and went from 1 or 2 plugs/month, to zero. Given what I read about the Totos, I'll escalate to them for problem tenants if needed, otherwise I'll remain standardized with the Kohlers. My tenants are all senior citizens, and they love the new toilets. I rather suspect that those who see them going into their neighbors units are apt to "make" the old ones fail, so that they can get their own new Cimmarons. No complaints about the swirl pattern and a "dirty back wall," though I do see it occasionally. There was a slight education curve on long flush, v short flush, but most catch on quickly.
Exactly my point. you need to use the long flush with the Cimarrron, because of the tight bends on the trapway.There was a slight education curve on long flush, v short flush, but most catch on quickly. Kohler Cimarron
Whereas the trapway on the Drake will flush with the short flush.
At least that's my experience.
The Kohler needs the long flush.
As far as installing a toilet?
Homeowners know how. Your handyman doesn't?
I would just ask one of my homeowner customers to start doing your installs. They rock!
The poor trapway design of the Kohler Cimarron
I emailed John Koeller (the fellow who does the map test) and he agrees with terry love's assertion that anything beyond 500 is pointless. I am glad to get that from an independant source as terry sells the toilets - good to know terry's info was on the level. John Koeller also states that some toilets rated at 1000 actually do not work as well as ones rated at 600 in areas beyond actual solid flush. John also concurred that the toto brand has an excellent reputation for quality and I would not be disappointed. For me that settles the issue- independant advice concurring with the plumbers that toto is an excellent brand and worth the price premium.
I went to my local wholesaler who sells the toto brand and discovered that the toto comes in a 4.8 litre eco drake and a 6 litre drake. The 2009 map test appears to test the 4.8 liter eco drake against other 6 litre toilets. Still the 4.8 litre eco drake rf tests at 500. More than acceptable with less water.
I looked in the tank and discovered the fill valve is not a standard model I can find at HD or Rona (the side mount handle prevents round fill valves). Given that I always stock spare parts that is annoying. I asked my wholesaler for prices on parts and they did not carry them!!! They will get back to me!! They said very few people ask about it.
Now my questions: the drake has a long track record: how is the track record on the eco drake? Which one do you recommend? Are there aftermarket suppliers for the fill valve and flapper? What are their costs? What are the costs from TOTO?
The Eco Drake uses the same bowl as the G-Max Drake.
There are several fill valves that can be used.
Toto has used three different brands of fill valve.
One version is the Korky,
Repair parts for the Korky can be gotten at Lowes and other hardware stores. Not HD.
Korky also makes replacement flappers for the Toto.
Most Toto dealers carry the parts. I do.
The fact that the Drake has a side handle doesn't prevent any of the fill valves from being used. I've also seen Fluidmaster used as a replacement.
Toto G-Max tank
Eco Drake tank
The Eco uses a weighted flapper which is fairly new. part number THU277S
thanks for a great web site terry. I don't know how you get work done answering all these messages. Could you answer the following questions and I promise not to harrass you further?
do you recommend the eco drake? I own an apartment block (36 suites) with cast iron drains (one small section is poorly sloped) and I have some concern about having enough carry. I have recently bought my own roto rooting machine to address this but I don't want to do that job ridiculously often. I am thinking perhaps replacing 13 litre toilets with 6 litre is pushing it - let alone 4.8.
If you replace the fill valve with fluid master do you have to bend the handle more to the front? If so does it impact the flapper function?
I assume I would be correct I would not have to replace the handle very often as it is already metal? I am amazed how often tenants break the plastic ones.
I assume that a 3 inch flapper would warp more readily than a 2 inch flapper requiring more maintenance: true or false? And I assume that the 3 inch flapper is rapidly becoming the new standard making the 2 inch obsolete.
If you are worried about the flush, then maybe the 1.6
But with apartments, it seems you will have plenty of water.
The newer toilets release the water much faster, and seem to drain away very well.
Old style toilets really only used some of the water for flushing. Much of it went down the drain "after" the flush.
When a large tank is refilled, the bowl is overfilled many times. None of it helping with the drain line.
Any of the fill valves drop right in. I've never had a problem that way.
The 3" flapper seems to last as long as the 2"