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Thread: Tankless Water Heater for Tub

  1. #16
    Illinois Licensed Plumber SewerRatz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregsauls View Post
    In all my years of customer service and support (25+) there always seems to be what I call "the rest of the story". When a system is down the blame is placed on the equipment as inferior or defective in nature. It's only after the tech arrives and starts digging into what is wrong that "the rest of the story" comes to light. The customer did "xyz" and the system overloaded and/or failed.

    Whether it's plumbing, heating, a/c, doors, windows, appliances etc they are "man made" and can be "man broke" whether intentional or through neglect.
    I've stated before that to live in this technology rich world it will start requiring a person to know more about technology. If you have know how to keep the virus updates current on your PC then you should know how to call the tankless tech to delime once a year along with all the yearly routine house maint items. Better yet, let plumbers put in place a yearly call system for delime service for customers. Great revenue stream for scheduled service.
    Greg, I do not mind installing and maintaining Tankless heaters, It just that many people think they can go out and buy a Tankless heater and have it quickly installed in the same spot with the same gas piping and exhaust venting that the old tank heater, which is not the case at all. A new install of a Tankless water heater needs to be sized to the max demand of the house per what every tankless manufacture says. Then need to ensure that the gas piping is sized properly to the heater and the gas supply is large enough to handle the total BTU demand of the Tankless system, furnace, and any other gas appliance. Then the exhaust venting CAN NOT tie into the same spot as the old water heater or go into the chimney, It needs to be vented through the roof or to an outside wall. Everything I just stated is a fact of installing a Tankless water heater system.

    If you have noticed I keep saying "Tankless Water Heater System", I say this to cover the fact that there might be more than one Tankless Water Heater needed to meet the needs of the home.

    Chucks let me point you back to what Takagi has to say "Remember: Although a home with two or three bathrooms may only have one or two occupants currently, the number may increase if the family changes or the house is sold. Size for the house, rather than the number of occupants." So what may work for you and your family might not work for the new family that moves into your house.

  2. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by SewerRatz View Post
    Greg, I do not mind installing and maintaining Tankless heaters, It just that many people think they can go out and buy a Tankless heater and have it quickly installed in the same spot with the same gas piping and exhaust venting that the old tank heater, which is not the case at all. A new install of a Tankless water heater needs to be sized to the max demand of the house per what every tankless manufacture says. Then need to ensure that the gas piping is sized properly to the heater and the gas supply is large enough to handle the total BTU demand of the Tankless system, furnace, and any other gas appliance. Then the exhaust venting CAN NOT tie into the same spot as the old water heater or go into the chimney, It needs to be vented through the roof or to an outside wall. Everything I just stated is a fact of installing a Tankless water heater system.

    If you have noticed I keep saying "Tankless Water Heater System", I say this to cover the fact that there might be more than one Tankless Water Heater needed to meet the needs of the home.

    Chucks let me point you back to what Takagi has to say "Remember: Although a home with two or three bathrooms may only have one or two occupants currently, the number may increase if the family changes or the house is sold. Size for the house, rather than the number of occupants." So what may work for you and your family might not work for the new family that moves into your house.
    Ratz... great points on what it takes to properly install a system. I did my homework which is why I am not having problems with my "tankless system." I, and many others, just get sick of the "I hate tankless/technology" crowd that seems to poopoo anything they don't feel comfortable with installing.

    Brings to mind the phrase, lead follow or get the hell out of the way. Seems like technology may be pushing some aside.
    "Dude, we can fix that. My old man is a TV repairman, he's got the ultimate set of tools!" --Jeff Spicoli


    http://web.me.com/greg.saulsbury/ChosatongaSpeaks

  3. #18
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer jadnashua's Avatar
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    One big problem is that people often get glassy eyed when someone tries to tell them the facts, and then they see the costs, and believe they can do it better than a pro, or know better. I don't think there's anyone here that doesn't believe that a tankless system CAN work, but that many installations DON'T work well because of one factor or another.

    There are situations where a tankless system needs enhancements to handle things a tank type does very well - take the example of a washing machine that fills and operates by short draws on hot water in another thread. The more complicated, the more maintenance and costs. Most people don't like compromises, and this means taking a shower when they want, and not having to wait for others...why have 2-3 or more bathrooms in the house if you can't use yours when you want? Sizing a system to support all users (and that is the code in many places) means (often) a pretty big inital cost.

    Last thing, while a tank system should be drained, and with the new technology, the filter screen cleaned off regularly, many people never look at it after installation and it lasts many long years. You cannot do that with a tankless system. And, yes, you can get a tankless system to produce essentially unlimited continuous hot water if you size it properly. Most people don't want to do that either because of the costs and accept the limitations.

    As to costs, standby losses aren't all that huge on a tank system, and the difference in equipment and maintenance costs plus installation on a tankless system, at today's energy rates, will likely make a tank system cheaper. A fairly typical tank system could be replaced 2-4 times over the cost of one tankless system. Plus, you can likely get your tank system replaced or repaired on a weekend, whereas trying to get a tankless repaired on a Friday night so you are not without hot water for the weekend or longer has a much lower probability of success.

    I think many of the pros don't want to install tankless because people don't want to pay for a system that actually has the capacity they really need, and the installer doesn't want to deal with an unhappy customer.

    As I've said before, you can get a tankless system that will work well, but, at least in my mind, it isn't worth the cost in most cases.
    Jim DeBruycker
    Important note - I'm not a pro
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer; Schluter 2.5-day Workshop Completed 2013, 2014

  4. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by jadnashua View Post

    As I've said before, you can get a tankless system that will work well, but, at least in my mind, it isn't worth the cost in most cases.

    Dude, your were doing so well with your post until that last line and then you blew the credibility you gained prior. Change the word "most" to "some" and you might be back on track. Speaking as someone who owns a properly sized tankless unit operating in the southern states (warmer inlet water temp), with a properly sized gas line, no water hardness issues, no well, and who understands the maint issue says; it can work for many single family homes in the southern states when these conditions apply and probably a "few" north of the MasonDixon line too. That a LOT of homes and breaks the use of the word "most" in your above comments.

    Does it cost more than a tank, yep. Does it save money, a bit. Will it pay for itself over 10 years, not without IRS tax rebates Do I have all the hot water I want... YOU BET and that is a big win in my book.

    Broad generalization by a few on this tankless sub-forum is what kills it's ability to be taken creditably and provide quality info for those posing legit questions and that a shame. I would suggest killing this tankless sub-forum off as it really is just a war between those who understand and use a tankless system daily and those who can't or won't accept a bit of technology.

    It's getting like the old man driving the horse and plow, seeing the tractor for the first time.... You can only imagine the flow of obscenities spewing from him while he ridiculed the infernal mechanized beast.
    "Dude, we can fix that. My old man is a TV repairman, he's got the ultimate set of tools!" --Jeff Spicoli


    http://web.me.com/greg.saulsbury/ChosatongaSpeaks

  5. #20
    Master Plumber nhmaster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregsauls View Post
    Consider the above source. An out of touch with the real world "old school plumber". Probably just grasping the concept of indoor plumbing.

    Sorry to inform ALL, no problems with my tankless from day one. I know thats hard to grasp for the "old schoolers" on here.

    Greggy boy, you really need to do a bit more homework before you begin spouting crap. But yes, when it comes to new school crap I am definatly "old school" We have no problem with your devotion to your tankless heater. In fact I believe that it works just super for you, because you are more than willing to overlook and justify the money you wasted on the thing just so you will not have to admit it was a total waste of money and time. The cold hard fact is that the average gas savings is about 4%. You get stacking and you get delay and you can not operate every fixture in the house at the same time at full capacity. Anything you spew to the contrary is crap. I know it, you know it and the tankless manufacturers not only know it but are willing to admit it. Let's get back to your insult. READ MY BIO. Take a plane trip on up and have a look at my classroom. I have condensing oil and gas equipment, solar, ground water and air to air heat pumps, all the latest bells and whistles including a Rinnai a Tagaki and a noritz all hanging on the wall and operating. All of this equipment is installed, tested and torn apart frequently. I have the facitities, the equipment and the budget to do things that would make your head spin. You think I pull my critisism out of my ass because I have a vendetta against new technology? MY JOB IS NEW TECHNOLOGY. But just because something is new (and tankless heaters are anything but new technology) does not make it good. I can give two reasons to install a tankless over a high efficiency tank type heater and both are kind of lame. Number 1 would be space and number two would be...... Oh hell, there is no number two.

  6. #21

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    Hehehe... I don't even have to read the above, since the yaahoo is blocked by me and should be by all others, and I smell BS flowing deep!
    "Dude, we can fix that. My old man is a TV repairman, he's got the ultimate set of tools!" --Jeff Spicoli


    http://web.me.com/greg.saulsbury/ChosatongaSpeaks

  7. #22
    Master Plumber nhmaster's Avatar
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    A shallow attempt my friend. We all know you "read the above" and have nothing but wet ammunition.

  8. #23
    DIY Member ChuckS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SewerRatz View Post
    Chucks let me point you back to what Takagi has to say "Remember: Although a home with two or three bathrooms may only have one or two occupants currently, the number may increase if the family changes or the house is sold. Size for the house, rather than the number of occupants." So what may work for you and your family might not work for the new family that moves into your house.
    I hear ya, I guess I grew up in a time when no one did anything while someone was in the shower. No toilet flushing, no drink of water, no changing the TV channel, no nothing... There were 6 of us and we did it every day.

    Dishwasher was turned on at night before we went to bed and clothe were washed all day on Saturday.

    Also, I wouldn't spend a nickel increasing the hot water capacity for the new family. If they want more hot water, well, it's now their crib which comes with the pleasure of paying for what ya need... Ya know?

    If they want more they can buy more.

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