Stinky water, high iron, need softener and overwhelmed

Users who are viewing this thread

Gary Slusser

That's all folks!
Messages
6,921
Reaction score
22
Points
38
Location
Wherever I park the motorhome.
Website
www.qualitywaterassociates.com
Chatterk, once you have the water analysis data, you will need some form of disinfectant, like chlorine, to oxidize the H2S, iron and any manganese. That will also kill any bacteria. Then a special carbon in a backwashed filter to remove the dirt from the water that oxidation causes and remove the chlorine. Then depending on the hardness in the water a softener. The softener would be optional because they can live with hard water and you could add the softener later. If you go with a softener now and not the rest, it will probably fail quite quickly and you may have to replace the resin to get it to work later.

I suggest my inline erosion pellet chlorinator and special mixing tank that is equivalent to a 120 gallon retention tank. Then the filter with a Clack WS-1 control valve and then the softener with a Clack WS-1 control valve. Depending on the size of the filter and the softener, usually around $2300 including UPS shipping. But I/you can't correctly size the filter or the softener until you know how much of what is in the water, and then the number of people, bathrooms ane the type of fixtures in the bathroom so you know the peak demand flow rate the filter and softener has to be able to treat. If you get that wrong, the equipment will not consistently remove everything from the water that they are supposed to.

BTW, you could buy a test kit at a hardware or other type store and do your own tests. Now Sammy may get a attitude over that (too) but don't pay any attention, you don't need target rifle accuracy at 3500 meters, a shotgun approach works very well. And you can't set up chlorine equipment without knowing how much iron you have or you can ruin the carbon.
 

Chatterk

New Member
Messages
18
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Okay, we paid the $50 for the following results:

IRON .83 mg/l LOD: .06 LOQ: .21 Dil: 1 Method: 200.7

IRON
BACTERIA <1 cfu/ml LOD, LOQ, Dil: all 1 Method: IB

SULFUR
BACTERIA 10000 cfu/ml LOD, LOQ, Dil: all 1 Method: SRB

This is all we received on the sheet they emailed (after my husband pd)
Is this accurate? Were we overcharged?
I hope this helps. Please let me know if there is more information you need.
C
 

Chatterk

New Member
Messages
18
Reaction score
0
Points
0
It's a 1200 sq ft home with 2 people living there, 1 kitchen sink faucet, and one bathroom with a tub/shower combo and sink in there. Plus a laundry room. That is it.

Thanks,
C
 

Drick

In the Trades
Messages
460
Reaction score
19
Points
18
>>IRON .83 mg/l

Thats nothing! Its enough to be a PINA and cause problems like in the toilet and tub though. Any water softener properly sized with the right media can pull that out! I have 14ppm iron. I'd take you water over mine any day.

One problem; I would question the accuracy of that test. I wouldn't think the iron concentration is high enough to be immediately noticeable in a glass of water as you have described.

Also your water test is not nearly complete and the bacteria is going to be a problem. You might get lucky and find out that shocking the well every few months keeps in under control. I would go to your local big box hardware store and buy a water test kit and see if the numbers match what you were given. Also you need to know the PH of your water.

-rick
 

Chatterk

New Member
Messages
18
Reaction score
0
Points
0
I know when he was at our house he said our water was really hard and that it was 18 grains of hardness. Apparently these numbers aren't matching up huh?
I really wish we wouldn't of had to pay $50 for this. Bummer.

Any other thoughts from anyone? How much are the store kits? Does it provide immediate results that could steer us in the right direction so we could purchase a fleck or clack online?

Thanks
 

Gary Slusser

That's all folks!
Messages
6,921
Reaction score
22
Points
38
Location
Wherever I park the motorhome.
Website
www.qualitywaterassociates.com
They charged you what they wanted to because they assume you are not going to buy from them but, they took samples to a lab, and paid the lab for the analysis, and got a few bucks for their trip to your place and their time. But if you are listing every thing the lab tested for, it is a very skimpy test but you don't need other tests.

Based on the size of the fixtures and number of people and bathrooms, you need smaller equipment and the delivered price would be less than the figure I mentioned.
 

Drick

In the Trades
Messages
460
Reaction score
19
Points
18
If all you are out to the water treatment company is $50 consider yourself lucky. Some people have lost thousands allowing them to install equipment that didn't work or didn't work for long.

The store bought test kits do provide immediate results. Like Gary said its more of a shotgun approach as opposed to an actual water analysis. It will put you in the ballpark. Not all kits are the same. Find one that will provide you with iron, manganese, Ph, hardness. IMO I'd still recommend an actual water analysis by an independent lab.

Also when you go to the house you need to know how many gallons per minute you well can deliver. Bring a 5 gallon bucket and time how long it takes to fill it from an outdoor faucet or if you have one in the basement right near the pressure tank thats just as good. You want as many gallons per minute as possible so bypass or remove any filters before you do this. Water softeners are somewhat forgiving, but actual water filters require a certain gallons per minute rate in order to backwash properly.
 

Gary Slusser

That's all folks!
Messages
6,921
Reaction score
22
Points
38
Location
Wherever I park the motorhome.
Website
www.qualitywaterassociates.com
The store bought test kits do provide immediate results. Like Gary said its more of a shotgun approach as opposed to an actual water analysis. It will put you in the ballpark. Not all kits are the same. Find one that will provide you with iron, manganese, Ph, hardness. IMO I'd still recommend an actual water analysis by an independent lab.

Also when you go to the house you need to know how many gallons per minute you well can deliver. Bring a 5 gallon bucket and time how long it takes to fill it from an outdoor faucet or if you have one in the basement right near the pressure tank thats just as good. You want as many gallons per minute as possible so bypass or remove any filters before you do this. Water softeners are somewhat forgiving, but actual water filters require a certain gallons per minute rate in order to backwash properly.
A few helpful comments. They do not need to spend more money on tests.

They do not need to measure the 'well output' and doing it with a bucket is not a true test anyway. The 'time' is used to figure the drawdown gallons of the pressure tank, and that is used to size a pressure tank (to provide 60 seconds minimum off for the proper cooling of a submersible pump), not how many gpm the well can produce or the pump can deliver. That's because the boiler drain on a pressure tank, or the bath tub or other faucet, is not the same flow rate, it is lower, as the outlet pipe from the pressure tank will/can deliver for the successful backwashing of a softener or filter.

The only way to get the gpm from the well or a submersible pump is to pull the pump up and run it at the average pressure switch settings, on the ground while you time and then measure the gpm. That gpm will always be higher than measuring anywhere in the house, and that really isn't the peak demand gpm used to size equipment anyway. And you'd have to disconnect the outlet of a jet pump or the pressure tank to measure them correctly.

All softeners and backwashed or regenerated filters are flow controlled meaning, the drain line flow is controlled to X.x gpm based on the cuft volume and type of resin or mineral used. The softener they need, with a Clack WS-1 control valve, would have a 2.4-2.7 gpm DLFC (drain line flow control) and the carbon filter, with a Clack WS-1, will have a 5-7 gpm DLFC.

Any well or pump can deliver that volume of water for the length of time required, which is also controlled to the minute by the programming of the control valve IF the valve allows it, some do not, like a 5600 TC.

Chatterk, all you need now is to select where you want to buy the equipment and then find the money for it. You and/or your hubby can install anything I sell in about 3-4 hours, and with Sharkbite fittings without soldering. And if you use them, it would be like 2.5 hrs.
 

Chatterk

New Member
Messages
18
Reaction score
0
Points
0
With the information I have given can anyone predict what size softener we would need. I'm leaning towards the fleck or clack.
Thanks,
 

Cacher_Chick

Test, Don't Guess!
Messages
5,458
Reaction score
213
Points
63
Location
Land of Cheese
Thanks Cacher_chick. He was going to rent us a unit for $45 a month, plus $89 install. And potentially another $45 a month for a pellet unit and something else to take out sulfur. For $90/month plue $89.00 we could get a pretty nice unit. And at this point I'm put off by the Culligan man b/c his quotes would change and he would never email me anything when I asked. He'd just quickly tell me it over the phone. I almost went with him and at the very end called and backed out b/c I was getting such a bad vibe. At this point I don't really want to call back and move forward with it. I know the $540 in rental would buy a Kenmore and if it only lasts 1 year, it will pay for itself (vs renting a Culligan). This where all my thinking came from.

thanks,
C

The fact is that if the water is safe to drink, you have fulfilled your responsibility to the renter. If it were me, I would negotiate sharing the cost of the rental equipment with the person you have rented the house to.

1200 a year is less than many people pay for city water.
 

Sammyhydro11

In the Trades
Messages
708
Reaction score
1
Points
16
Location
Massachusetts
Not knowing someones mechanical limitations and giving them a 3-4 hr. time frame on installing a water treatment system, sounds a little deceiving. You sound better telling them to hire a plumber. Go Home Depot! You can do it!

sammy

www.tylerwellandpump.com
 
Last edited:

Chatterk

New Member
Messages
18
Reaction score
0
Points
0
I know you guys are suggesting the chlorinator but would a Manganese Greensand Filter. Our sulfur bacteria count is on the low end right? Just exploring all options.

Biermech, when you say 1 cf could you explain a little more.

Thanks,
C
 

Gary Slusser

That's all folks!
Messages
6,921
Reaction score
22
Points
38
Location
Wherever I park the motorhome.
Website
www.qualitywaterassociates.com
Sammy, before you can knowledgeably criticize my statements, you need much more experience in sales to DIYers. I have been selling to them from 1992-1994 and now since 2002. My record is 4' 11" twin 73 year old spinster sisters, they installed their softener in FL outside along side the house. They had never done anything like that before, and they only called me once while they were doing it.

Also, I've never heard of any customer that wanted to hire a plumber to install their equipment and couldn't find one, it's simple plumbing and that's all they have to do, the customer does the programming etc..

Chatterk, a .5 cuft carbon filter and a 1.0 cuft softener is too small. The carbon will load up fairly quickly and the salt efficiency of the softener will be terrible.

With your SRB, you must kill it and a manganese greensand filter will not kill anything. Greensand regenerates with expensive potassium permanganate and it is a serious poison and expensive.
 

Chatterk

New Member
Messages
18
Reaction score
0
Points
0
So it sounds like we would only need 24,000 grain water softener correct? I thought our water was on the high end of iron (at least that is what the Culligan guy suggested). So what is the difference in a 24k, 32k, 48k water softener?

Biermech, I know you rave about "no computers" which I have to agree, that does sound appealing. My brother has an old Culligan that is all mechanical and he loves it. Is that true with every Fleck (no computer).

As far as the Greensand goes, I didn't know it was more expensive. Also, I will take Gary's word on it using a poison. There are a lot of dangerous drugs on the market that FDA has not banned. I don't care if everyone is using them, I wouldn't trust it based on that.

Gary you think get a bigger tank and Biermech you say 1 cf will work. What is the harm in going a little bigger just to be safe? Also, on the resin, should we do the upgrade to the C249 or Fine Mesh? I assume we should look for something similar to this.

We will be out at the house tonight and I will try to get pictures of the set up. My dad pre-plumbed for a softener and I can't imagine having room for the chlorinator, retention tank and filter (all before the softener right?).

Are my sulfur bacteria numbers all that high? Would a softener and carbon filter potentially take away all the odors?
THanks much!
C
p.s. Gary, I appreciate your approach with DIY'ers. I am confident we can handle this (hubby is an ME). I think it's better to assume someone can do something before assuming they can't. I loved your story about the sisters in Florida. That's awesome.
 

Gary Slusser

That's all folks!
Messages
6,921
Reaction score
22
Points
38
Location
Wherever I park the motorhome.
Website
www.qualitywaterassociates.com
Chatterk, regardless of what Sammy says, everything I've said is true.

A 1/2 cuft of carbon is too small because it has a very low SFR (service flow rating).

Without chlorine or another disinfectant, the SRB will go right through the filters being mentioned and remain in your water along with any odor it causes after either a carbon or greensand filter. If there is enough of it, it can cause the filters to fail and a failed carbon filter requires new carbon after you sanitize the tank.

My softener would have a 3 gpm higher peak demand flow rate than a 1 cuft meaning it will remove all the hardness, iron and manganese from a higher flow rate. It will also have a much reduced pressure loss. It will give you a regeneration on average every 8 days instead of every 6 days saving 15 regenerations and 90 lbs of salt and a bunch of water and pump wear.

The softener will have variable reserve based on the individual last 21 days actual water usage, and that is controlled by the computer. Ask anyone selling you a mechanical metered Fleck how the reserve is calculated.

My softener makes brine with softened water which keeps the salt tank much cleaner.

It records the highest gpm run through it for each of the last 7 days and then the highest gpm since the day the unit was installed. It maintains a record of each of the last 63 days' actual gallons used. And how many regenerations have been done since the unit was installed.

It has a calendar override of the metering so the resin doesn't go too far between regenerations when the normal volume of water isn't used for whatever reason, which is hard on resin, especially if there is iron in the water. It's like an engine manufacturer saying to change the oil and filter every X miles, or 6 months, whichever comes first, to protect the engine.

I've sold 1180+/- of these valves and had 22 problems and out of them, 4-6 were circuit boards and out of them, 2-3 were lightening strikes. The Clack WS-1 is very reliable and a much better valve than the Fleck 5600 or 2510 valves. I say that because I sold Fleck 5600 and 2510 all but exclusively for 18 years as a local dealer (until 2004), and I still sell some today but...

The biggest and best reason to buy a Clack WS-1 is that it was designed by 3 ex Fleck engineers to be the easiest to program and repair when needed. Anyone with a pair of adjustable pliers can totally replace all of its 5 parts and have the water back on in under 30 minutes.

It has the same piston, seals and spacers design as Fleck but all the 14 pieces all come out as 2 pieces in less than 5 seconds with nothing more than a finger tip, where all Fleck seals and spacers (4-5 of each) come out individually and most dealers use the special control valve model specific Fleck tools to take them out and put new ones in.

Softeners are sized by cuft of resin. A 24K is a 3/4 cuft softener. ALL softeners have an adjustable K of capacity and it is dictated by the lbs of salt used per cuft of resin. The volume of resin dictates how many gpm can be run through the resin bed and all the hardness etc. will be removed; exceed that gpm and you get hardness through the resin.

Chlorine is nowhere near as serious as potassium permanganate which if something goes wrong as it does and too much PP is used or final rinse can not flush all of it out of the filter, PP can easily be added to the water going to the fixtures.

You do not need any specific and more expensive resin like C-249, the least expensive regular mesh resin is all you need. If you needed different resin, fine mesh or SST-60 would be the right kind and SST-60 is best. It does not foul as regular and fine mesh does and it does not have the pressure loss of fine mesh.
 

Chatterk

New Member
Messages
18
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Andy, thank you for all the links. I will look those over.

After talking with my husband I now have a better understanding as to why our water was so red and full of sediments last time we were out there. We had chlorinated the well and he had bypassed the carbon filter (to avoid it pulling out all the chlorine). Because of this all the gunk from either our well or the lines running to the house went into our plumbing and out the faucets. Which after thinking through everyone's advice I can't help but wonder if all the gunk from our well isn't going to defeat the purpose of all of this equipment. As soon as we put in a filter it doesn't take long for it to be covered in red deposits (either rust from the lines leading to the house or stuff from the well). Which has me wondering if we aren't just better off digging a new well (which in turn would hopefully mean no more sulfur bacteria and eliminate all this rust from entering our water lines). I will call a couple well service companies tomorrow and get their input. I know we still need to get a softener but maybe it would eliminate the bacteria and odor. Yes it will cost more but if we are already spending upwards of $2000 this would maybe be better for the long haul.

Any thoughts?
Thanks,
C
 

Chatterk

New Member
Messages
18
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Biermech & Gary, thanks for the specific info on the size of softener and resin. I'm still a little confused on the resin. One guy I spoke with today told me to go with the WS1 Clack because it has only 3 moving parts and it is piston driven. He also suggested going with the basic resin. So I am leaning towards the 40K tank (1.25 cuft Resin).

Also, on the brine tank, is that just personal preference? Lastly, I still a little confused on the hookup. Here is a picture of what we have in our basement, my dad set us up with hookups (including 3 shutoff valves). How does the softener connect to the pvc he has provided? Will it be a flexible hose?

THanks,
 

Attachments

  • softener setup.jpg
    softener setup.jpg
    60.9 KB · Views: 800
Top
Hey, wait a minute.

This is awkward, but...

It looks like you're using an ad blocker. We get it, but (1) terrylove.com can't live without ads, and (2) ad blockers can cause issues with videos and comments. If you'd like to support the site, please allow ads.

If any particular ad is your REASON for blocking ads, please let us know. We might be able to do something about it. Thanks.
I've Disabled AdBlock    No Thanks