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Thread: Copper Bond Epoxy - Opinions?

  1. #16
    DIY Senior Member plumguy's Avatar
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    If I may add my two cents I also agree with the use of compression fittings. In 20+ years of experience I have never had any problems or need to try to avoid compression fittings. They are a standard,accepted and approved connection that has a great track record if installed PROPERLY... like anything else!!

  2. #17
    DIY Senior Member Cal's Avatar
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    I can't believe we are even having this discussion !!

    Me too. 25 years, couple of drips, NEVER a blow off . However--Had MANY a threaded nipple break off in a wall or joint while trying to replace the cutoff.That's nice,,, Hanging face first over someone's piss laden toilet trying to get some 3/8" threads out of a fitting 5" back in a wall !!

    GIVE ME COMPRESSION !!!!

  3. #18
    Plumber plumber1's Avatar
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    Default Compression

    Terry is quite right. I.ve looked at compression stops since they came out.
    They are so easy to use . Never, ever had one problem with them............

  4. #19
    DIY Senior Member thezster's Avatar
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    Wow - fascinating stuff.... Kind of makes up my mind on the new lavs I just finished roughing in. Got sweated caps on now till drywall.... think I'll run out and get some compression fittings for later.....

    Though it took a while to figure it out on this thread...

  5. #20

    Default Copper-bond epoxy

    In 1988 I replumbed my 84-year-old heart pine house with copper (less prone to splitting when frozen in our exposed crawl spaces) using Copper-Bond for the joints because soldering under a fat lighter house is not a good idea. The next year, Hurricane Hugo pushed a wall of water through my town. Not one leak, even after all that pressure, which stove in the main hard duct for the heating/ac system (it looked like a crescent moon) and not one leak since.

    As for getting into the joints, all you have to do is heat it briefly (I do use a torch for that) and the epoxy becomes brittle and breaks loose, leaving a very clean joint that can then be reglued, so there is no need to cut off the part of the pipe inside the joint as some have stated.

    By the way, I keep 40-60 lbs of pressure in my system (we're on wells, so I can read it on the pump gauge) and never have had a problem with either the Copper-Bond joints or the compression joints at kitchen/bathroom sinks. I have, however, had a problem with thin-wall PVC (the line from the pump house to the house) when it's exposed to freezing or to sunlight for years. Schedule 40 is durable.

    I'm moving the kitchen and need to replumb it, so I went looking for more Copper Bond and can't find it anywhere, nor had anyone even heard of it! What a pity, because it's so good.

  6. #21
    Licensed Grump GrumpyPlumber's Avatar
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    Regarding the original thread NEVER EVER use epoxy, glue or any solvent on metal to metal.... it'll go from temperature expansion & contraction...copper expands & contracts at a completely different rate than plastic or other substances.
    As for the never-ending debate on compression (yup...we debate that in my state too). The reason I was first taught to not use compression was it's not intended for use on harder type "L" copper, but inspectors pass it all the time.
    I personally prefer to sweat the 1/2" inlet because I don't like the idea that I could possibly rotate it while tightening the 3/8" compression feeds...it's all a matter of personal taste.

    When it comes to the older 3/8" threaded nipples...I use two channel locks and say a prayer before I start.
    There are also the fine threaded 3/8" nipples that are mostly obsolete, but pop up in older homes...first thing I do is recommend to the homeowner they let me replace as much of it as they can afford...using reem adaptors.
    Last edited by GrumpyPlumber; 07-29-2007 at 02:16 PM.
    "The biggest regrets we have in life are the chances we never took."

  7. #22

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    Copper-Bond Epoxy

    Pacer Technology/Super Glue Corporation Copper-Bond Epoxy Adhesive (80583) is a unique 2-part epoxy system, which was developed specifically to join copper tubing and fittings for water systems. It works best on:

    • Copper
    • Stainless steel
    • Aluminum
    • Brass
    • Bronze

    • Chrome
    • Galvanized steel

    Copper-Bond epoxy has UL-approval for use in fire sprinkler systems using pipe from ” to 2” size, Type L or M, with a maximum system pressure of 175 psi. This thin film adhesive is designed to join two surfaces and is not appropriate for use as a patching material for leaks. The epoxy will not interfere with using the plumbing system for a ground and can be used with .002 to .020” gap.

    PROPERTIES:

    Initial color: R(white paste)/H(brown-yellow paste) Full Strength: 24 hours
    Final color: Brown-copper Mix Ratio (parts by volume): 1:1
    Working Time: 5 minutes Temperature Use Range: 360 to 1800 F
    Handling Time: After 20 minutes (20 to 820C)


    USE INSTRUCTIONS:
    1. Assemble tools & materials: pipe, fittings, tubing cutter, abrasive cloth and copper pipe fitting brush. (Be sure to de-burr the pipe with a file).
    2. Cut the tubing with a wheel cutter or hacksaw.
    3. De-burr the pipe and clean the outside of the pipe with abrasive cloth.
    4. Clean the inside of the fitting with a fitting brush.
    5. Check the dry fit of the pipe: it should slide easily into the fitting. Dented or out-of-round parts should not be used and may result in leaks.
    6. Open Copper-Bond syringe by cutting tips evenly across. Dispense on clean, flat disposable surface (such as cardboard). If product does not flow, use nail to puncture the skin, which sometimes forms on the inside. Copper-Bond must be mixed in equal parts by volume. If adhesive comes out unevenly at first, discard the unequal amount and dispense more Copper-Bond. Mix thoroughly until uniform in color (approximately 20-30 seconds of vigorous stirring).
    7. Apply a heavy film of mixed product to the outside of pipe to the full depth of the joint.
    8. Apply a thin film to the inside of the fitting. Do not leave any bare spots as this may cause a pinhole leak.
    9. Insert pipe into fitting with a slight twist as you insert & wipe off excess Copper-Bond with a rag.
    10. Copper-Bond sets in approximately 20 minutes. Before pressurizing, test the product you mixed with a fingernail: it should be hard. If it is not hard, wait longer and then retest. If product is not hard within one hour, it was not mixed in an equal part by volume. Take the joint apart and go back to Step #6.
    11. Copper piping must be supported horizontally every ten feet, vertically every eight feet. In addition, Copper-Bond joints must not be disturbed during the cure time. It is good practice to flush a new piping system for 10 minutes before using any water from it.
    Last edited by Cass; 10-28-2007 at 02:07 PM.

  8. #23
    Master Plumber Dunbar Plumbing's Avatar
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    IPC UPC NPC and BOCA codes don't approve this product for new installations of piping systems.
    Read what the end of this sentence means.

  9. #24

    Default

    I agree with the plumbers who use compression stops - I've been using them since 1966 on thousands of installations and have never, ever known one to have a catastrophic failure. I am leery of epoxy for that use, but I have never used it and really have no idea why I'd want to. These days, I use PEX pipe with copper stubouts, and I certainly wouldn't want to solder on the end of it with plastic on the other end.

    Now there are other methods, such as the quick-connect, sharkbite-style stops.

  10. #25
    DIY Junior Member farcast's Avatar
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    Default Comment on compression fittings

    I came here looking for some info on copper bond epoxy - I'm using some copper pipe for a temporary application completely unrelated to home plumbing, and just was wondering what experiences people have had.

    And instead, I'm going to add my take on compression fittings:
    I hate them.

    I have spent decades doing handyman jobs in rentals which were too small to call a plumber, and I have had to mess with compression fittings ten or twenty times. They leak, but not enough to call the plumber. So the homeowner or landlord tightens the thing, and ten years later it leaks again. My father broke a toilet tightening a leaky compression fitting under a toilet when his wrench slipped.

    And sometimes when a compression fitting leaks ten years later, no one notices for ages and the floor rots out underneath it. The original plumber is probably retired by then, so he never hears about the $20k bathroom repair. (I think we had that happen 3 times. One time the tenant noticed the drip and "didn't want to bother" the landlord because it was so small!) You know, sometimes a "catastrophic" plumbing failure can be cheaper than a leak, because it is usually discovered right away.

    A related problem: those satanic fittings under toilet with a permanently attached cheap corrugated metal pipe going to the toilet tank. Decades ago, toilet valves didn't last long, and after that corrugated metal thing had been bent a few times to replace the toilet valve, it would start to leak. And then when we tried to replace it with a quality ball valve and replaceable flexible tubing, we'd find a compression fitting. Funny thing about compression fittings: it's next to impossible to tighten them enough to prevent leaking the second or third time the fitting is taken apart, and no DIY guy has the tools to remove or replace the compression ring.

    I no longer have to deal with rental units, but I've replaced or upgraded almost every fixture on my 1970's era home. I've had to open 6 or so compression fittings, and was only able to get one, JUST ONE, to reseal, and I bloodied my knuckles and crushed the copper into uranium doing it. The others? I just gave up, cut them off, and soldered on MNPT fittings. Not crazy about pipe thread either, but I've never had a problem.

    My take: compression fittings may be wonderful for plumbers, but not for homeowners or landlords.
    Last edited by farcast; 08-03-2010 at 04:12 PM. Reason: .

  11. #26
    Master Plumber Redwood's Avatar
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    I'd carry buckets before I used Copper Bond!

    There are simply too many other good choices of things to use whether it is learning to sweat pipe, using compression fittings, or, SharkBites.

  12. #27
    In the Trades Wally Hays's Avatar
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    Wow, talk about digging up the dead.
    Perception is 3/4 of reality

  13. #28
    Journeyman & Gas Fitter Doherty Plumbing's Avatar
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    Who the h*ll uses copper bond and even considers themself a handyman let alone a professional?

  14. #29
    General Engineering Contractor ballvalve's Avatar
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    I wonder why you plumbers are so afraid of epoxy? Is sweating pipe the last frontier of the trade to be taken away from you? Let us consider foundation bolt retrofitting, where a dirty piece of iron goes into an 1/8 to 1/4 " oversize hole. They test 4 to 10000 PSI and usually pull out the crappy cement before the bolt leaves the epoxy.

    Now, a clean, abraded fitting and pipe, with a few thousanths clearance, cleaned with some acetone, and properly epoxied [pretty much the same standards for sweating] will be a joint just as good as a solder job, and not subject to earthquake forces. Unless your hot water runs over 200', the issue of heat expansion ratios is addressed in the epoxy formula.

    I have a pile of lags and screws in old pressure tanks with JB weld and even some 99 cent chinese epoxy, and never had one leak after several years. The trick is in the prep and application.

    That said, I am about all PEX now anyway, but would never travel without a torch and solder.... Getting ready to epoxy a tub shower valve stub outs to pex - no worry about heat or dissasembly to sweat. I'll report back if they blow out.

    I'll bet granpa had a very hard time letting go of his oakum and lead pot when ABS came along too.

    You guys all trust PVC cement - in Europe they laugh at that and use heat weld plastic joints.
    Last edited by ballvalve; 08-08-2010 at 12:27 PM.

  15. #30
    Master Plumber-Gas Fitter shacko's Avatar
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    >>>I wonder why you plumbers are so afraid of epoxy?<<<

    Plumbers are not afraid of it, it is not allowed under most codes.

    >>>I'll bet granpa had a very hard time letting go of his oakum and lead pot when ABS came along too<<<

    You missed two eras, the copper pipe dwv and the STAINLESS STEEL dwv.

    >>>You guys all trust PVC cement - in Europe they laugh at that and use heat weld plastic joints.<<<

    You didn't give any real information, we heat weld plastic in the U.S.A. also, depends on the situation.

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