Hydrocare HC38 Thoughts???

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RobPurc

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Hello from England. Blimey! I did a search on google re: HS38 and came across this, didn't realise it could be such an emotive subject! The reason I'm contributing was to let you know that as far as British gas go, they must genuinely think it works. I have a combination boiler and I am in a very hard water area my heating system as of late has been making very loud knocking noises. I am a British Gas customer and they have a scheme EnergyExtra 50 whereby you pay £2 a month on top of your normal bill, if you then have a problem with your boiler, electrics, plumbing or drains you pay a £99 flat fee which includes callout, parts, labour and taxes. This is unlimited per job. So if they have to visit 3 times and fit 3 parts to fix a problem you only make the one £99 payment even if the cost of the parts is £500 (they also give you for free a standby saver multi-socket plug and a remote electricity monitor which displays how much electricity your appliances are using as part of the scheme). As I said my heating has been knocking, so I called out my usual plumber who said it was probably scale and it might be worth a try putting descaler into the system which he did and as it only cost me 30 quid was worth a shot. However it didn't work, he said it could be the heat exchanger, which would cost at least £200 for the job. So I obviously invoked my British Gas deal which will cost me £99 tops. The Engineer called a couple of hours ago, he thinks it could be the pump or the heat exchanger. He is going to change the pump first, if this doesn't work he will change the heat exchanger. There is however a caveat, the heat exchanger gets changed the first time under the deal with no extra charge, if however in say two years time because of scale the heat exchanger needed changing again, if in the meantime I haven't taken any scale prevention action I would get charged the full price, if I do take some sort of scale prevention measure it would still come under the £99 flat fee scheme. The engineer did tell me about about the HS38 which British Gas will fit for £117, and he did recommend it (well he would wouldn't he?). To be fair this chap fixed my boiler before and for my £99 I had 3 visits including a system flush, a new pressure relief valve, new auto air vent and a new Control Board , which as my regular plumber quoted me £132 just for the Control Board parts only, wasn't bad! I definitely think British Gas believe the HS38 will reduce their costs. They are not a charity and they obviously think the risk of boiler damage from scale will significantly increase if the HS38 is not fitted, they don't force you to have it done they are just amending the terms of the Service Contract if you don't. Anecdotally the engineer told me he has one fitted and he barely has to clean his glass shower cubicle anymore. I am as tight as a gnat's arse, but when he turns up on tuesday to do the pump I think I may go ahead a get the HS38 even if the heat exchanger isn't the problem. If I do take the plunge I will report back the results at a later date.
 

NHmaster

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Super. Now lets debunk the whole thing. Your boiler is filled with water or glycol or a mix of each. This water fills the system and the pressure is maintained between 12 and 15 lbs/psi. As long as the system is tight (no leaks) the water in the system will have had all its scale causing minerals precipitated out within the first day or use. Therefore, you will never have a problem with scale build up on a residential boiler. Your knocking sound is something else all together, most probably the temperature is set too high and you are boiling the water. Call a good technician. I've been in the heating business for a very long time indeed and have never ever seen a residential boiler scale up unless there were very extenuating circumstances.
 

RobPurc

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Errrrrrrrrr.........Not quite. We moved into the house 8 years ago boiler was about 2 years old. Since then we have had extra rads fitted, rads moved, garage converted to dining room so boiler moved from garage to loft. System has been drained down numerous times, and, putting my hand up rather weakly has been filled back up with good old mains water, with no exotic mixes of glycol, liquid platinum, or kryptonite, can you tell I'm not a plumber but just Joe Public. I have bled radiators and topped up again quite merrily with mains water. The British Gas engineer suspects it's the pump, he hasn't discounted the heat exchanger, but like yourself he doubts it as he's never had to change my models heat exchanger for scale in the 15 years he's been doing the job. However if it was that, that is the British Gas policy with regard to anti scale measures. I'll let you know how I get on. Can I just say it to save you a job I'm a complete numbnut when it comes to DIY, so I know I haven't looked after the boiler as I should have done. I have slapped my wrists very hard.
 

Jadnashua

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As was said, a typical residential boiler system is a closed system...once filled, doesn't need refilling. If you have leaks, fix them. If you fix them, you won't get air into the system, and scale won't be a problem. How many times to you fill your teakettle before you have to clean it out from scale? Lots of 'turnover' of contents. Your boiler system should have nowhere near that amount of turnover.
 

NHmaster

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Zactly. British Gas is using commercial steam process boilers that go through perhaps a hundred or more gallons of water every day. Most large process boilers use a chemical feed system to remove minerals and adjust PH. Their supposed results from the use of hydrocare are not scientific results by any means and are more likely the result of adjustments made to the incoming water, the chemical feed or the flow rate through the system. What Hydrocare claims and BG is reporting are against the laws of physics.

When will this nonsense ever end? I suspect never, as long as there are gullible folks around.
 

James Percarpio

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HC44 - Results after one week

As I posted earlier I purchased the HC44 unit and installed it about a week ago. My analysis is focusing on a few key areas: shower head, dishwasher, water temperature, any hard water stains, and humidifier. Their claims as I understand them are that the unit is going to prevent future scale build up and over time break down existing scale.

Thus far the results I have obtained are inconclusive. Hard to make any definitive conclusions about the glassware in the dishwasher, shower head is still clogged up, have not used the humidifier yet, the one possible improvement is that when I took a shower this morning I did not have to set the dial as high as I normally do for water temperature, although we were away for a couple of days.

I'll report back again after week two.
 

James Percarpio

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HC44 - Results for week two

Just wanted to provide an update on my results with HC44, before I do I thought I should provide some background info on my house and water hardness. My house is over 50 years old, although most of the plumbing has been updated. Also, about two years ago we put an addition on the house and moved the kitchen and one of the bathrooms into the new addition. Along with that we had to install a new hotwater heater about a 18 months ago. The hot water heater is 80 gallons and electric. The water in my town is pretty hard: 20.41 grains per gallon.

Regarding the results for week two, they are as follows:
- The most noticeable improvement has been on the bottom of the glasses in the dishwasher. We would normally get an opaque white film on the bottom (outside) of the clear glasses; that has improved and is not as bad.
- As far as the appearance of the glasses overall, there might be a slight improvement, but I not much better.
- With regard to the hotwater; it seems like we don't have to turn it up as high as we used to.
- My wife seemed to think that we are getting more suds than before.
- Shower head is still clogged up pretty bad, so I would still hold that as inconclusive.

I'll provide another update after week three.
 

NHmaster

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Ahh Yes, steady improvement, I am beginning to see the pattern, but week 4 there will be nothing short of a miracle ;)
 

James Percarpio

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HC44 Week Four

Regarding the results for week two, they are as follows:
- The most noticeable improvement has been on the bottom of the glasses in the dishwasher. We would normally get an opaque white film on the bottom (outside) of the clear glasses; that has improved and is not as bad.
- As far as the appearance of the glasses overall, there might be a slight improvement, but not much better.
- With regard to the hotwater; it seems like we don't have to turn it up as high as we used to.
- My wife seemed to think that we are getting more suds than before.
- Shower head is still clogged up pretty bad, so I would still hold that as inconclusive.

Basically my results for week three and four are about the same as week two. The most noticeable improvement has been with the scale build up on the bottom of the glasses in the dishwasher. Other than that it is very difficult to quantify. My intent over the next few weeks (time permitting) will be to try and develop some quantifiable tests utilizing the equipment/chemicals I have in my lab. I will continue to update you as I obtain more quantifible data.
 

jnyost

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Regarding the results for week two, they are as follows:
- The most noticeable improvement has been on the bottom of the glasses in the dishwasher. We would normally get an opaque white film on the bottom (outside) of the clear glasses; that has improved and is not as bad.
- As far as the appearance of the glasses overall, there might be a slight improvement, but not much better.
- With regard to the hotwater; it seems like we don't have to turn it up as high as we used to.
- My wife seemed to think that we are getting more suds than before.
- Shower head is still clogged up pretty bad, so I would still hold that as inconclusive.

Basically my results for week three and four are about the same as week two. The most noticeable improvement has been with the scale build up on the bottom of the glasses in the dishwasher. Other than that it is very difficult to quantify. My intent over the next few weeks (time permitting) will be to try and develop some quantifiable tests utilizing the equipment/chemicals I have in my lab. I will continue to update you as I obtain more quantifible data.

Interesting. Thanks for the continued feedback. I have a respected local plumber who has mentioned a similar unit to me. I didn't give it much thought until I saw this thread here. It's not this brand, but a different one that I don't care to mention. I'll just get slammed as being a plant for them.

I came to the site mainly to do research on water heaters but will continue to read this entire thread. I've only read the first few pages and then skipped to the last few. It amazes me how many people slam a product they know nothing about. Kinda makes you wonder if you should believe anything they post.
 

James Percarpio

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Seed Crystals

Peter, I was hoping you could clear something up for me based on a comment you made in July, Post #70, you said:

“Oppositely-charged ions tend to form neutral ion-pairs anyway, but they are so loosely-bound that they are continually dissociating and re-reforming, and are not believed able to grow large enough to serve as precipitation nuclei.â€

Now my focus is going to be on the Pelican Water "softener" technology (which as far as I can tell is the same as the Watts product), which claims the following:

How does the Pelican NaturSoft System soften my water?
The NaturSoft media acts as a catalyst reducing the degree of super saturation required to form solid calcium carbonate crystals. By forming these submicron crystals, NaturSoft removes the excess calcium from solution that would otherwise be the cause for an elevated scale potential. These newly formed calcium carbonate crystals then are introduced to the water as suspended particles where they perform the same role as the media itself, i.e. acting as seed crystals further buffering the effects of any changes in the scale potential of the water downstream by adsorbing excess mineral into their structure and themselves spawning the creation of additional micro crystals.

That following statement comes from the Pelican website. Are you claiming that the formation of "seed crystals" is not possible, and that the Pelican product would not be effective either.

Look forward to your response.
 

TCox

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I'm the new guy here and not any sort of expert. At my house the ground (earth) from my service panel is bonded to my incoming copper city water service. All dielectric connections (water heater, softener, etc.) in the house are bonded as well, and as our code requires. So, just a question and not intended to be facitious, haven't I already exposed my plumbing to electricity at 60 htz of frequency? Granted, there is no current, but there is none in the subject devices either. Does it require the higher frequency to develop "seed crystals"?
 

James Percarpio

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Seed Crystals

Yes Peter, I am aware that the product offered by Pelican does not use electricity, as I did research it. I just wanted to clarify wheather or not you were objecting to the claim that any type of product could produce calcium carbonate "seed crystals" by your previous statement. And even though I have noticed some improvements since I have installed HC44 I'm not endorsing the Hydrocare product. As I noted before it is difficult to quantify the results. :)
 

James Percarpio

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Seed Crystals

No, I'm not looking to sneek up on anybody. I've been doing my own research on the chemistry behind limescale recently, and recalled that you had made some statements about this (prior to purchasing the unit I looked at the dialogue/debate on this website as well as a few others). Just looking to get clarification on your views about that claim.
 

cdysthe

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The damn thing works. I hate having to admit it.

Hi,

My wife is into everything green and alternative and insisted on installing a HC-38 in place of our dying salt based water softener. We installed a Titan on-demand water heater (great unit at an incredibly low price!) and a GE sediment filter at the same time. I did immediately notice that the oily feel of the water was gone. But what started happening was actually quite dramatic: Large amounts of scale was collecting inside all faucets and clogged them to the extent I had to clean them out at least once a week. The intake to the dishwasher got clogged also with this flaky scale deposits. The scale deposits were black initially, but now they are more yellow and looks like the flaky food we purchase for the kids gold fish. This scale release has now been going on for months but the amount has gradually become less. Since we have a sediment filter installed I know it comes from our pipes, and it's pretty obvious to me that the HydroCare unit is causing this enormous release of scale which has been gathered in the pipes over a couple of decades. This side effect I think people should be made aware of since the effectiveness of the unit can literally block water flow to appliances and faucets.

Other than that all I can say is that I personally like this water much better than the brine I used to shower in. My wife, who started this adventure, is not so sure she likes the "feel" of the water better than the salt softened water but says that shampoo and soaps are just as effective now as it was before. She gloats though over the extreme effects the unit has had not being the one who has to clean scale out of faucet aerators every week.

I did not believe in this thing before we bought it, and I do not want to believe in it now either, but I have no choice since decades of scale has already been removed and the water feels fine, on top of which we do not have problems with deposits on shower heads either.

If I had known about all the work involved after installing something like this I think I would have protested even more than I did because I didn't think it would work and thought the little plastic box was way overpriced.

The unit stays. It's probably good to get all that scale out and the water quality is very good. The one year return and refund window is about to close. I think we are going to let it.

I've read this whole heated thread. The thing is: I sympathies with the skeptics, but on this one I'm afraid they may be wrong. Sorry! :)
 
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