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Thread: Well Storage Tank replacement

  1. #16
    DIY Senior Member mrmichaeljmoore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sammyhydro11 View Post
    That's a good price for the 250. Almost sounds too good to be true. You must have a 5 gallon per minute 1/2hp pump because the 7 gallon doesn't have enough shut off pressure for your well depth. Anyways, that size tank will give your pump enough run time.

    sammy

    www.tylerwellandpump.com
    I think I may go with the WX-250.
    Not sure what the well gallons per minute are for my pump.....

    thanks for the advice....
    mike

  2. #17
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    You should be aware of the fact that the larger draw down means you pull a low producing well down farther than with a smaller tank and, you take all that additional water out of the well all at once. That can cause water quality and other problems.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
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    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  3. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    You should be aware of the fact that the larger draw down means you pull a low producing well down farther than with a smaller tank and, you take all that additional water out of the well all at once. That can cause water quality and other problems.
    Gary,
    Would you mind elaborating on that?
    I plumbed in larger capacity tanks to my system, but they will only service my outside hose bibs. I have a deep well, around 700 feet, which produces in the 2-3 gpm range. I don't know what the static water level is. I plan to only allow the pump to fill the larger tanks while watering.
    I'm curious what other problems I have set myself up for.
    TIA

  4. #19
    Previous member sammyhydro11's Avatar
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    I'm totally on board with a CSV. The question is, will one of the well contractors install it. If so, then go for it!

    sammy

    www.tylerwellandpump.com

  5. #20
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stonecutter View Post
    Gary,
    Would you mind elaborating on that?
    I plumbed in larger capacity tanks to my system, but they will only service my outside hose bibs. I have a deep well, around 700 feet, which produces in the 2-3 gpm range. I don't know what the static water level is. I plan to only allow the pump to fill the larger tanks while watering.
    I'm curious what other problems I have set myself up for.
    TIA
    I think what I said should be self explanatory but, you must replace all the drawdown gallons of all the tanks, or a larger tank all at once. That means the pump is going to run until the gallons are replaced and the pressure rises to shut off, right? Well with a low producing well, taking a lot of gallons out all at once shortens the recovery time and that reduces the number of gallons running back into the well as you take water out of it, right? And if you are watering at the same time, you take that water out of the well at the same time, pulling the water level down farther, right?

    A CSV and small tank was the right way to go, the pump only takes the volume of water you use and the little to refill the tank when you stop using water.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  6. #21
    Previous member sammyhydro11's Avatar
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    Taking more water out of a well doesn't shorten the recovery time, the recovery time would actually be longer.That would be like saying a larger tank will make your well produce more water. Taking more water out will not reduce the amount of water coming into the well either. The production of the well would remain the same. With a larger holding tank, all you are doing is moving the storage from one place to another, and and at times adding more storage, but if the water level in the well is close to the inlet of the pump, while the pump is filling the tank, you can potentially over pump the well. With the CSV, once you are done with water use, the pressure will rise to 50 psi, and regulate the the flow back to 1 gpm, reducing the amount of drawdown in the well. In the case of a well producing one gallon per minute or more, there would be no drawdown beyond 50 psi, when you are done using water. If a pumptec could be used with a csv, it would be a good protection device. You would have to consult with valveman about that, but i believe you would have to make a special adjustments to the amp draw for the overpumping feature. I'm not fully in tune with the exact amp draw for different size pumps running with a csv.

    sammy

    www.tylerwellandpump.com

  7. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    That means the pump is going to run until the gallons are replaced and the pressure rises to shut off, right? Well with a low producing well, taking a lot of gallons out all at once shortens the recovery time and that reduces the number of gallons running back into the well as you take water out of it, right?
    I don't know, that is why I am asking.
    If I have a 700 ft deep reservior of water, what is the disadvantage of pumping a large amount of that water into a couple bladder tanks?
    As I understand it, my pump would run a slight bit longer amount of time, and my well level would drop a bit, and my pump would run fairly effeciently while bringinging the storage tanks up to pressure at full flow.
    I interpret this to be efficient energy consumption with reduced pump cycling.

    The well's water level would obviously get lower.
    Why is this a problem?
    Am i likely to get a cave in?
    Is the mixing of upper level stored water with lower level water likely to put bacterial or chemical contaminants into my system?
    What do you mean regarding reducing the volume running back into the well. I thought it was refreshing itself at 3 GPM regardless of where the static level of water is at any given time?

    Confused

  8. #23
    Previous member sammyhydro11's Avatar
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    I can see why you would be confused. Lowering the water level in the well will potentially cause the water to reach the pumps inlet if you are taking out more than what the well is producing. The timing to make that happen depends on how much the well produces, how much you are taking out for gallons per minute,and how long you run the water. It can cause the pump to take in air which can be damaging to it. By doing this you wont reduce the volume coming into the well, that will remain the same. Over pumping can cause some iron and silt problems. I would suggest asking the well guys installing your tank to also install a pump tec to protect the pump.

    sammy

    www.tylerwellandpump.com

  9. #24
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sammyhydro11 View Post
    Taking more water out of a well doesn't shorten the recovery time, the recovery time would actually be longer.That would be like saying a larger tank will make your well produce more water. Taking more water out will not reduce the amount of water coming into the well either. The production of the well would remain the same. With a larger holding tank, all you are doing is moving the storage from one place to another, and and at times adding more storage, but if the water level in the well is close to the inlet of the pump, while the pump is filling the tank, you can potentially over pump the well. With the CSV, once you are done with water use, the pressure will rise to 50 psi, and regulate the the flow back to 1 gpm, reducing the amount of drawdown in the well. In the case of a well producing one gallon per minute or more, there would be no drawdown beyond 50 psi, when you are done using water. If a pumptec could be used with a csv, it would be a good protection device. You would have to consult with valveman about that, but i believe you would have to make a special adjustments to the amp draw for the overpumping feature. I'm not fully in tune with the exact amp draw for different size pumps running with a csv.

    sammy
    Yeah Sammy I wasn't clearly saying what I mean.

    He is going to have a pump that will deliver the peak demand of the house and the irrigation or this is all moot. He doesn't have a CSV so...

    Let's say his tank storage drawdown is 40 gallons and he has a 2 gpm recovery rate (as he has said). He says he doesn't know what the static water level is but, he is going to water plants etc. and run water in the house at the same time sometimes, and as you know, we must plan for worst case scenario. So say the water use takes the tanks down to cut in in 4 minutes for ease of figures for this example. Now the pump comes on and supplies water for both uses and (without a CSV) it refills the tanks in say 8 minutes. His recovery in the 8 minutes is 2*8 = 16 gallons plus the 4 minutes until the pump comes on again = 24 gallons but, he keeps using water at 10 gpm with a net of 8 gpm (10 gals-2gpm recovery), how soon does he pull the well down to the depth that the pump can't deliver his peak demand gpm or it sucks air? I think that's as clear as I can get it without spending a lot more time or having an author's license.

    And if you understood a system's operation with a CSV better I'd ask you to compare it to these very large tanks that you seem to not see any problem with on a low producing well.

    Stonecutter, does that help some?
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  10. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by sammyhydro11 View Post
    I can see why you would be confused. Lowering the water level in the well will potentially cause the water to reach the pumps inlet if you are taking out more than what the well is producing. The timing to make that happen depends on how much the well produces, how much you are taking out for gallons per minute,and how long you run the water. It can cause the pump to take in air which can be damaging to it. By doing this you wont reduce the volume coming into the well, that will remain the same. Over pumping can cause some iron and silt problems. I would suggest asking the well guys installing your tank to also install a pump tec to protect the pump.

    sammy

    www.tylerwellandpump.com
    Thanks Sammy,

    When we first moved in our well was producing some sediment that kept clogging the inlet screen on our washing machine. The builder told my wife to run the water a lot to clear it out. She opened the hot & cold valves on our big 6' bathtub, which are on 3/4" lines, and left it running a pretty long time. She apparently emptied the well, which tripped a little lever on the pressure switch.

    Is this little safety lever the pump tec you refer to?

    When the power goes out, and we use up what is in out current small tank, I need to pull that lever for a few seconds to get the pump going again.

    If I make an assumption that my static water level is at 50 to 100 ft, how do I calculate how many gallons of reserve are in the remaining 600 ft of the well? The metal standpipe is 6" diameter, but I don't know how deep the metal goes. I assume the boring is 6" all the way down.

    Thanks

  11. #26
    Previous member sammyhydro11's Avatar
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    The pump shouldn't be set all the way to the bottom of the well and your casing stops at a certain depth depending on where they found enough, solid, competent, bedrock. If the casing is set in some loose or fractured rock, it creates a poor seal where, sediment and surface water above the bedrock can get into the well. Once the hole is drilled into solid rock, the casing is set, and drilling commences. Assuming the pump is set 50 feet off the bottom of the well and your static water level is at 50 feet, i think a safe number would be around 850 gallons of stored water. You can't go off the storage capacity of the 6 inch casing(1.5 gallons per ft.) because again, it only goes so deep and the diameter of the hole decreases beyond the casing. So that 850 gallons is a very close assumption. the average person uses close to 75 gallons of water a day.

    If you go on my website, click on the Our Services tab, and at the bottom of the page there is a downhole video of a well. You can see the void at 60' where the casing terminates. That void was producing silt because of a bad seal. You can also see how the hole decreases in diameter.

    What you have on the tank is a low water or low pressure cut off switch. It will cause the pump to shut off, if it has over pumped the well. Once the pump starts taking in some air, the pressure and volume reduces, and causes the switch to kick out.

    sammy

    www.tylerwellandpump.com

  12. #27

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    sammy,

    Thanks again for the info. I watched your video. Very interesting stuff.

    You have nice web site, very informative. You come across as a very good business man. I respect that.

    I'm in Howard Co, MD.
    Easterday Well & Pump in MT Airy, MD drilled my well in late 2004. The original pump crapped out last fall, and Easterday came and put in a new Goulds 5GS10422 pump.
    Prior to showing signs of failure (excessive amp draw) the old pump was shooting a lot of what looked like iron filings into the system.

    I'd like to see better life from this pump. They gave me a 5 year warrenty.

  13. #28
    Moderator valveman's Avatar
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    You never said what pump you have. Assuming that you can pump 8 GPM from 600' and 50 PSI, I would guess a 7 GPM, 2 HP pump. If this is correct, then one problem you have is upthrust. Anytime the water level is higher than 400', that pump is being destroyed by upthrust. A CSV will throttle the pump back to match the amount of water you are using. This makes the pump think it is in a deeper well, so it can produce less water, and eliminates the upthrust.

    The CSV also gives the advantage of not pulling on the well so hard, just to refill a pressure tank.

    The low pressure cut-off pressure switch you have works pretty good most of the time. The only problem is if the well pump dry just as you stop using water. In this case the well will be pumped dry while trying to refill the pressure tank. Since you are not using water at that time, the pressure will not drop, and the low pressure switch will not shut off the pump. The next time you use water, you will have what was in the tank, and then the water stops. This is because running the pump dry has melted it down and destroyed it.

    A pump tec does not care about pressure and will shut the pump off when the well is dry, even if you are not using water. However, the pump tec is not sensitive enough to work with a CSV. When the CSV throttles the pump back, the low amperage makes the Pump Tec think the well is dry when it is not.

    A Cycle Sensor will do a better job than the Pump Tec. The Cycle Sensor has enough adjustment to know the difference between throttling the pump, and an actual dry well condition.

    Didn't see your last reply. The 5GS10 will not pump as much water as the pump I thought you had but, it still has the same upthrust problem. This is most likely why it didn't last very long.
    Last edited by valveman; 03-19-2009 at 08:36 AM.

  14. #29
    Previous member sammyhydro11's Avatar
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    Stonecutter,
    thanks for the website compliments. I install Goulds pumps and i have always had good luck with them. They started designing their own motors a few years back but they haven't had a good period of field testing yet. It has been around 2 years since my first install with the new motor, and I have not had any problems so far! From what i understand, their new motor is identical to the Franklin motor that they used to sell with their pumps.

    sammy

    www.tylerwellandpump.com

  15. #30
    DIY Senior Member mrmichaeljmoore's Avatar
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    Default Quickly bring the thread back to the original question....

    I just spoke to Amtrol.
    I spoke to a customer service rep to get some assistance in sizing my tank.

    I told him what I currently had: Amtrol RT42T (42 gallon rentention tank)

    He said that he would go with the WX-205 or the WX-250.

    I asked him about making sure I replace it with the correct size tank. He said the main thing is to not undersize the tank. He said you cant oversize it....

    Then I asked him if he needed to know about my current well situation (that is, 245 foot well, 5 gallons per minute at 245 feet, Gould 1/2 HP submersible pump).
    He said based on what I told him, to go with the WX-250.

    alrighty then.

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