Well Storage Tank replacement

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Sammyhydro11

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Taking more water out of a well doesn't shorten the recovery time, the recovery time would actually be longer.That would be like saying a larger tank will make your well produce more water. Taking more water out will not reduce the amount of water coming into the well either. The production of the well would remain the same. With a larger holding tank, all you are doing is moving the storage from one place to another, and and at times adding more storage, but if the water level in the well is close to the inlet of the pump, while the pump is filling the tank, you can potentially over pump the well. With the CSV, once you are done with water use, the pressure will rise to 50 psi, and regulate the the flow back to 1 gpm, reducing the amount of drawdown in the well. In the case of a well producing one gallon per minute or more, there would be no drawdown beyond 50 psi, when you are done using water. If a pumptec could be used with a csv, it would be a good protection device. You would have to consult with valveman about that, but i believe you would have to make a special adjustments to the amp draw for the overpumping feature. I'm not fully in tune with the exact amp draw for different size pumps running with a csv.

sammy

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Stonecutter

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That means the pump is going to run until the gallons are replaced and the pressure rises to shut off, right? Well with a low producing well, taking a lot of gallons out all at once shortens the recovery time and that reduces the number of gallons running back into the well as you take water out of it, right?

I don't know, that is why I am asking.
If I have a 700 ft deep reservior of water, what is the disadvantage of pumping a large amount of that water into a couple bladder tanks?
As I understand it, my pump would run a slight bit longer amount of time, and my well level would drop a bit, and my pump would run fairly effeciently while bringinging the storage tanks up to pressure at full flow.
I interpret this to be efficient energy consumption with reduced pump cycling.

The well's water level would obviously get lower.
Why is this a problem?
Am i likely to get a cave in?
Is the mixing of upper level stored water with lower level water likely to put bacterial or chemical contaminants into my system?
What do you mean regarding reducing the volume running back into the well. I thought it was refreshing itself at 3 GPM regardless of where the static level of water is at any given time?

Confused
 

Sammyhydro11

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I can see why you would be confused. Lowering the water level in the well will potentially cause the water to reach the pumps inlet if you are taking out more than what the well is producing. The timing to make that happen depends on how much the well produces, how much you are taking out for gallons per minute,and how long you run the water. It can cause the pump to take in air which can be damaging to it. By doing this you wont reduce the volume coming into the well, that will remain the same. Over pumping can cause some iron and silt problems. I would suggest asking the well guys installing your tank to also install a pump tec to protect the pump.

sammy

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Gary Slusser

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Taking more water out of a well doesn't shorten the recovery time, the recovery time would actually be longer.That would be like saying a larger tank will make your well produce more water. Taking more water out will not reduce the amount of water coming into the well either. The production of the well would remain the same. With a larger holding tank, all you are doing is moving the storage from one place to another, and and at times adding more storage, but if the water level in the well is close to the inlet of the pump, while the pump is filling the tank, you can potentially over pump the well. With the CSV, once you are done with water use, the pressure will rise to 50 psi, and regulate the the flow back to 1 gpm, reducing the amount of drawdown in the well. In the case of a well producing one gallon per minute or more, there would be no drawdown beyond 50 psi, when you are done using water. If a pumptec could be used with a csv, it would be a good protection device. You would have to consult with valveman about that, but i believe you would have to make a special adjustments to the amp draw for the overpumping feature. I'm not fully in tune with the exact amp draw for different size pumps running with a csv.

sammy
Yeah Sammy I wasn't clearly saying what I mean.

He is going to have a pump that will deliver the peak demand of the house and the irrigation or this is all moot. He doesn't have a CSV so...

Let's say his tank storage drawdown is 40 gallons and he has a 2 gpm recovery rate (as he has said). He says he doesn't know what the static water level is but, he is going to water plants etc. and run water in the house at the same time sometimes, and as you know, we must plan for worst case scenario. So say the water use takes the tanks down to cut in in 4 minutes for ease of figures for this example. Now the pump comes on and supplies water for both uses and (without a CSV) it refills the tanks in say 8 minutes. His recovery in the 8 minutes is 2*8 = 16 gallons plus the 4 minutes until the pump comes on again = 24 gallons but, he keeps using water at 10 gpm with a net of 8 gpm (10 gals-2gpm recovery), how soon does he pull the well down to the depth that the pump can't deliver his peak demand gpm or it sucks air? I think that's as clear as I can get it without spending a lot more time or having an author's license. :)

And if you understood a system's operation with a CSV better I'd ask you to compare it to these very large tanks that you seem to not see any problem with on a low producing well.

Stonecutter, does that help some?
 

Stonecutter

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I can see why you would be confused. Lowering the water level in the well will potentially cause the water to reach the pumps inlet if you are taking out more than what the well is producing. The timing to make that happen depends on how much the well produces, how much you are taking out for gallons per minute,and how long you run the water. It can cause the pump to take in air which can be damaging to it. By doing this you wont reduce the volume coming into the well, that will remain the same. Over pumping can cause some iron and silt problems. I would suggest asking the well guys installing your tank to also install a pump tec to protect the pump.

sammy

www.tylerwellandpump.com

Thanks Sammy,

When we first moved in our well was producing some sediment that kept clogging the inlet screen on our washing machine. The builder told my wife to run the water a lot to clear it out. She opened the hot & cold valves on our big 6' bathtub, which are on 3/4" lines, and left it running a pretty long time. She apparently emptied the well, which tripped a little lever on the pressure switch.

Is this little safety lever the pump tec you refer to?

When the power goes out, and we use up what is in out current small tank, I need to pull that lever for a few seconds to get the pump going again.

If I make an assumption that my static water level is at 50 to 100 ft, how do I calculate how many gallons of reserve are in the remaining 600 ft of the well? The metal standpipe is 6" diameter, but I don't know how deep the metal goes. I assume the boring is 6" all the way down.

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Sammyhydro11

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The pump shouldn't be set all the way to the bottom of the well and your casing stops at a certain depth depending on where they found enough, solid, competent, bedrock. If the casing is set in some loose or fractured rock, it creates a poor seal where, sediment and surface water above the bedrock can get into the well. Once the hole is drilled into solid rock, the casing is set, and drilling commences. Assuming the pump is set 50 feet off the bottom of the well and your static water level is at 50 feet, i think a safe number would be around 850 gallons of stored water. You can't go off the storage capacity of the 6 inch casing(1.5 gallons per ft.) because again, it only goes so deep and the diameter of the hole decreases beyond the casing. So that 850 gallons is a very close assumption. the average person uses close to 75 gallons of water a day.

If you go on my website, click on the Our Services tab, and at the bottom of the page there is a downhole video of a well. You can see the void at 60' where the casing terminates. That void was producing silt because of a bad seal. You can also see how the hole decreases in diameter.

What you have on the tank is a low water or low pressure cut off switch. It will cause the pump to shut off, if it has over pumped the well. Once the pump starts taking in some air, the pressure and volume reduces, and causes the switch to kick out.

sammy

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Stonecutter

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sammy,

Thanks again for the info. I watched your video. Very interesting stuff.

You have nice web site, very informative. You come across as a very good business man. I respect that.

I'm in Howard Co, MD.
Easterday Well & Pump in MT Airy, MD drilled my well in late 2004. The original pump crapped out last fall, and Easterday came and put in a new Goulds 5GS10422 pump.
Prior to showing signs of failure (excessive amp draw) the old pump was shooting a lot of what looked like iron filings into the system.

I'd like to see better life from this pump. They gave me a 5 year warrenty.
 

Valveman

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You never said what pump you have. Assuming that you can pump 8 GPM from 600' and 50 PSI, I would guess a 7 GPM, 2 HP pump. If this is correct, then one problem you have is upthrust. Anytime the water level is higher than 400', that pump is being destroyed by upthrust. A CSV will throttle the pump back to match the amount of water you are using. This makes the pump think it is in a deeper well, so it can produce less water, and eliminates the upthrust.

The CSV also gives the advantage of not pulling on the well so hard, just to refill a pressure tank.

The low pressure cut-off pressure switch you have works pretty good most of the time. The only problem is if the well pump dry just as you stop using water. In this case the well will be pumped dry while trying to refill the pressure tank. Since you are not using water at that time, the pressure will not drop, and the low pressure switch will not shut off the pump. The next time you use water, you will have what was in the tank, and then the water stops. This is because running the pump dry has melted it down and destroyed it.

A pump tec does not care about pressure and will shut the pump off when the well is dry, even if you are not using water. However, the pump tec is not sensitive enough to work with a CSV. When the CSV throttles the pump back, the low amperage makes the Pump Tec think the well is dry when it is not.

A Cycle Sensor will do a better job than the Pump Tec. The Cycle Sensor has enough adjustment to know the difference between throttling the pump, and an actual dry well condition.

Didn't see your last reply. The 5GS10 will not pump as much water as the pump I thought you had but, it still has the same upthrust problem. This is most likely why it didn't last very long.
 
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Sammyhydro11

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Stonecutter,
thanks for the website compliments. I install Goulds pumps and i have always had good luck with them. They started designing their own motors a few years back but they haven't had a good period of field testing yet. It has been around 2 years since my first install with the new motor, and I have not had any problems so far! From what i understand, their new motor is identical to the Franklin motor that they used to sell with their pumps.

sammy

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Quickly bring the thread back to the original question....

I just spoke to Amtrol.
I spoke to a customer service rep to get some assistance in sizing my tank.

I told him what I currently had: Amtrol RT42T (42 gallon rentention tank)

He said that he would go with the WX-205 or the WX-250.

I asked him about making sure I replace it with the correct size tank. He said the main thing is to not undersize the tank. He said you cant oversize it....

Then I asked him if he needed to know about my current well situation (that is, 245 foot well, 5 gallons per minute at 245 feet, Gould 1/2 HP submersible pump).
He said based on what I told him, to go with the WX-250.

alrighty then.
 

Waterwelldude

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The pump shouldn't be set all the way to the bottom of the well and your casing stops at a certain depth depending on where they found enough, solid, competent, bedrock. If the casing is set in some loose or fractured rock, it creates a poor seal where, sediment and surface water above the bedrock can get into the well. Once the hole is drilled into solid rock, the casing is set, and drilling commences.
sammy
www.tylerwellandpump.com


Forgive me if I missed something.
The type of well construction you mentioned. How do you know that is the type of well in question?

As you know, not all wells are drilled the same way.
Some wells, the casing does go nearly to the bottom, be it two string or straight wall, minus 10 or 20 feet for the screen.


Just wondering.


Travis
 
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Unless you can't DIY, I would suggest shopping around for a better price...

http://www.aquascience.net/pressure-tanks/index.cfm?id=505

$399.50, shipping included.

witch

I wish I could DIY.....but I have no plumbing skills.

I did shop around....this was the cheapest.
One guy wanted $1100.....for the WX-203!!! that tank is over $100 cheaper than the WX-250 at the site you linked.

Welcome to Fairfield County, CT. Everything is freakin' expensive here.

When I call to set up the install, I am gonna try to haggle them down a few bucks.....hopefully.
 

Speedbump

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Geesh, my WWT-45 Flexcon tank, the exact replacement for the Well X Trol WX-250 is $344.94. I guess I should raise my prices.

bob...
 

Speedbump

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Nope, no free shipping at that price. If we can get the bill up to $750.00, then the shipping is free. How about three tanks?

bob...
 

Gary Slusser

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Travis, right on, but I think someone is ignoring you... That may be a good thing!

Mike, plumbing skills like soldering and use of a pipe wrench or two are learned in about 30 minutes of practice. In CT, having someone install it for you, it might cost you more than the price of the tank. And they take the tools they use to do it with them when they leave. ;)

Sammy, with Mike being in CT, is he allowed to do it himself?
 
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Sammyhydro11

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Is he allowed to do it himself? Who knows, i don't live in Ct. but on a professional level it would be wise for him to find out. Ha! Gary just keep telling everyone that the more drawdown in a well, the more it will produce, and then keep up with your bad mouthing of actual licensed well contractors. You are offended by licenses, certifications, proper water testing, and regulations because it negates your internet sales. You totally down play merit because you have none. People like myself care about this industry, care about peoples health, and also understand that our licenses and certifications show our true professionalism. You have been booted by so many internet forums because of your aggressive sales tactics but you are still here because you assist in other peoples sales.You are bad for the real people in this trade who rely on the local sales of our equipment and our local economy. You sound like some guy from Home Depot who wants to make everyone believe they can do it themselves but its really aimed at getting your unit sold. Oh yeah, "just find a local plumber to put it in", knowing damn well most plumbers have no clue about water treatment. Then you will try to make someone, that has no clue about plumbing, believe that they can be a plumber at a snap of a finger. It's sad that you rely on the fact that these people have no clue on water treatment. Basing what type of water treatment someone needs on a test from home depot is completely horrible. I think if Valveman knew more about water treatment and the proper ethics behind it, you would have been gone a long time ago. My dad always taught me not to get into a wresting match with a pig, because you both get dirty and the pig likes it, but you push buttons!

I must still be here out of boredom to deal with a guy like Gary. Thank god spring is here!!!

Travis, i wasn't ignoring you, and it takes a guy like Gary to assume that. Maybe the guys well is set up differently, but i doubt it. A screened well installed to only produce 3 GPM?

sammy

www.tylerwellandpump.com
 
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Gary Slusser

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Is he allowed to do it himself? Who knows, i don't live in Ct. but on a professional level it would be wise for him to find out. Ha! Gary just keep telling everyone that the more drawdown in a well, the more it will produce, and then keep up with your bad mouthing of actual licensed well contractors. You are offended by licenses, certifications, proper water testing, and regulations because it negates your internet sales. You totally down play merit because you have none. People like myself care about this industry, care about peoples health, and also understand that our licenses and certifications show our true professionalism. You have been booted by so many internet forums because of your aggressive sales tactics but you are still here because you assist in other peoples sales.You are bad for the real people in this trade who rely on the local sales of our equipment and our local economy. You sound like some guy from Home Depot who wants to make everyone believe they can do it themselves but its really aimed at getting your unit sold. Oh yeah, "just find a local plumber to put it in", knowing damn well most plumbers have no clue about water treatment. Then you will try to make someone, that has no clue about plumbing, believe that they can be a plumber at a snap of a finger. It's sad that you rely on the fact that these people have no clue on water treatment. Basing what type of water treatment someone needs on a test from home depot is completely horrible. I think if Valveman knew more about water treatment and the proper ethics behind it, you would have been gone a long time ago. My dad always taught me not to get into a wresting match with a pig, because you both get dirty and the pig likes it, but you push buttons!

I must be still here out of boredom to deal with a guy like Gary. Thank god spring is here!!!

Travis, i wasn't ignoring you, and it takes a guy like Gary to assume that. Maybe the guys well is set up differently, but i doubt it. A screened well installed to only produce 3 GPM?

sammy

www.tylerwellandpump.com
Sammy, since yer squealin' like that pig your Dad mentioned to ya, I'll take his advice.
 

Gary Slusser

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More like you have no firm ground against anything i said.

sammy

www.tylerwellandpump.com
Sammy, your market is local and I doubt you will pick up much local business from your posts here in a DIYer forum but, you may lose business because of your posts here based on what and how you say it.

I have been a DIYer since I was a kid in the 1950s. I am all for DIYers and have been selling to them from early 1992 thru 1994 on Sunday at a huge regional flea market! in central PA ($50K of sales in the 1st 6 months, and untold good will value for only $20 a day), and since 2002 thru email until Sept 2003 when my dinky web site went live (up to $250K a yr).

Selling to DIYers as nothing but a voice on the phone is difficult and not everyone selling the same stuff can do it. It takes a lot of desire, patience and know how from the DIYer customers' point of view. Which many of them have little to no experience in installing but... they have the desire and only need some confidence that they can learn how. Look at you, you big dummy, even you learned how to solder and install a submersible pump at some point, right? Did you learn by taking tests or actually doing the wrench turning? I seem to be very good at teaching those that want to learn.

You are against DIYers doing pump work or anything to do with a well and their own softener or other water treatment equipment installations, or hiring a plumber to do it I suppose. BTW, you do know that I don't sell pumps or tanks or CSVs right? Would you feel better if I did, I mean the bad economy and local dealers are taking business away from me, ya know?

If my customer doesn't want to install their water treatment equipment themselves plumbers do it gladly. The customer does the programming etc.. I've never heard of a customer that couldn't hire a plumber, yet you go on as if that isn't true, do you know how that makes you look?

You call me unprofessional and yet continue to expect me to be "PROFESSIONAL" DUH! and you want me to help you protect your local water treatment dealer/driller businesses for you. I suggest you learn who and how to market your LOCAL services to.

You live and work in your local market and you travel through it daily and advertise in it, I don't. And you worry about me selling something to someone in it while all I can do is type on my keyboard while you bad mouth me!! The vast majority of people in your local area want you to do everything for them. A very very few want to do it themselves; fergit'em and get on with your life and reduce your stress levels so you can live longer. And quit coming on with this self proclaimed righteousness about protecting local businesses from the Internet and big box stores as if that's possible, it isn't so quit banging your head and get over it.

I couldn't care less if you have all the licenses and Certifications money can buy, and guess what, my prospective DIY customer (IN YOUR LOCAL AREA) doesn't care either, they simply don't want to do business with a local dealer and until a few more months go by, the present government will probably allow them that right.

If your business isn't doing as well as you want or need it to, figure out what mistakes you are making and what you need to do to correct them and what to do that your competition is not doing and is good for the customer and go do it.

Personally I think you need to learn how to get people to buy from you. That's different than learning how to sell them something. That would be much better for you than using your licenses and Certifications as crutches while you mistakenly think they will bring you business. IMO, they'll possibly bring you a bit of business but not enough to recover your time and expenses. Word of mouth in your local area based on your abilities to solve your prospective customers' problems as simply and as affordably as possible is what you should be concerned about; and if you do that, business will boom.
 
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