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Thread: Increasing pressure?

  1. #1
    DIY Junior Member steve2278's Avatar
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    Default Increasing pressure?

    Hi everyone. I'm new to this forum and I've been looking for some professional feedback and I think I came to the right place.

    I just bought a house that is fed by a well. The well is 60' deep and the pump is a Myers 1/2 hp, and the pump tank is tiny (about the size of a 5 gallon bucket) therefore I'm assuming its about 5 gallons?...but definitely no bigger than 10 gallons.

    The water main coming into the house is 3/4" line that runs about 55 feet and the home is a 3bd, 2 bth ranch, all on one level, no basement. I don't know what my current (GPM) flow rate is but its not good. [I conducted a test with water coming out of the bathtub faucet (with everything else turned-off) and I only got 5 gallons per minute. And I'm not sure if that's considered an accurate test?]. Unfortunately, the water quality is even worse! The water is ridden with rust and has a nasty sulfur smell, and I hired a plumber 2 months ago to install a (12" x 5") Whirpool large capacity whole house water filter coming off the well pump, and its helped tremendously! Unfortunately, the (packed carbon) filter cartridge only last about 2 weeks in a 1 person household! Yea, the water is that bad.

    I realize I'm going to have to with a better filtration system, unfortunately that's also going to mean even a greater decrease in water pressure, and I'm trying to come up with a way to counteract that, and ultimately improve the water pressure altogether.

    Right now I'm considering digging-up the water main and have a plumber install a 1" line and get rid of the 3/4" line and I'm sure that will help somewhat. However, I think the real solution is to upgrade to a much larger pump tank (even if I have to go with a 100 gallon tank) and possibly a larger well pump?

    Any suggestions from you guys would be greatly appreciated!!!...and if anyone could recommend a GOOD whole house water filtration system that would be even better! I know its going to cost me a few bucks to resolve this problem, and I really could use some guidance as to troubleshooting the core issue.

    Thank you,
    Steve

  2. #2
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    What pressure range does the pressure gauge show when the pump runs from on to off?

    If that filter is between the pump and the pressure switch/tank, remove it before you blow the pump off the line in the well or the plumbing.

    Have you checked the air pressure in the pressure tank, with no water in it, to be 1-2 psi less than the turn the pump on pressure switch setting? I.E 30 on 50 off on the gauge says the air pressure in the tank wit hno water in it should be 29-28 psi. That air pressure provides the power to move water when your pump is not running. The air pressure and your switch settings are adjustable. The higher pressure the more water you get in gpm. Your tank size is unimportant. Pumps are sized by the gpm the house requires and then the hp to get the job done. The 1/2 hp is probability just right for your well.

    You need current water tests done for hardness, iron and pH at least.

    Carbon/charcoal is not a good choice to remove dirt.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  3. #3
    DIY Junior Member steve2278's Avatar
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    Default Increasing pressure?

    Thanks for your reply.

    I just went out and tested it. When off, the pressure gauge on the pump read 36. I then ran one bathroom sink faucet and it slowly went up to 52 and then kicked-off after about 20 seconds. I then ran the tub faucet (along with the bathroom sink faucet) and the pump remained on and ran at 48. After I shut both fixtures off the pump kicked-off and the pump gauge held steady at 46.

    Unfortunately there is no gauge on the pressure tank? So I really have no way of knowing if it functioning properly?

    I also tested the water, and yes, it scored high on hardness, alkalinity and iron. I also tried using a sediment filter on the WH filter and I still had rust. I then tried a filter designed for microbial contaminants and that didn't do anything. The carbon filter is the only one that has been effective in removing both rust and the sulfur smell.

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    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    You didn't say at what psi the pump comes on...

    Do this and I think you'll help solve teh problem: Have you checked the air pressure in the pressure tank, with no water in it, to be 1-2 psi less than the turn the pump on pressure switch setting? I.E 30 on 50 off on the gauge says the air pressure in the tank wit hno water in it should be 29-28 psi.

    There are instructions at the top of this forum.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  5. #5
    Porky Cutter,MGWC Porky's Avatar
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    Default Filter after the tank!

    Gary Slusser is right the filter needs to be after the tank. You didn't state whether the pump is above ground (Jet Pump) or in the well (Submersible)!

    A packed carbon filter will usually restrict the flow and yes you do have a water quality problem. You may want to contact a water quality company.

    The 5 gallon tank is fine if you have a Cycle Stop Valve installed somewhere between the pump and the tank, otherwise the pump will cycle it's self to death.

    You can get by without a CSV if using a large tank however you won't have constant pressure (like city water pressure) and your pump will cycle more often which shortens the life of your pump; pressure switch and tank bladder.

    If the well can handle it a 3/4 hp pump may give you more flow but the 3/4" line is a little small even for a 1/2 hp pump.

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    DIY Junior Member steve2278's Avatar
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    Default Increasing pressure?

    Thanks for your responses.

    Unfortunately my well lid is covered by 8" of snow and ice right now but I'm going to pry it off within the next day or two to gather the information you requested and I'll definitely get back to you!

    Thanks,
    Steve

  7. #7
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Isn't your pressure gauge in the house. What are you going to do in the well?

    We need to know at what pressure on the gauge the pump turns on at. You can read the pressure on the gauge. Run water and watch the gauge, when the pump comes on the pressure stops falling and starts to increase, what is that pressure? Then eventually the pressure stops increasing, what is that pressure?
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  8. #8
    DIY Junior Member steve2278's Avatar
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    Default Increasing Pressure?

    Thanks for your comments guys.

    This is my first experience with a well/pump as I've always had city water. However, I checked and checked again (both inside the home and on the well itself) and there is no pressure gauge for the bladder tank. None! Therefore the only thing I have to go by is the pressure gauge on the pump itself.

    When the water is OFF the pressure gauge on the well pump reads 36. It never falls below this number...never. And I repeat that's when the water is off and the pump is not running.

    When I turn a household faucet on the water on the well pump kicks on about 15 seconds later and the well pump will run for about 90 seconds and the gauge on the well pump will climb to 52 and then it shuts-off. I monitored this several times through out the course of several days and noticed that the pressure gauge on the well pump will then slowly drop to about 46 (it takes about 2.5 minutes for it to drop to this level) and then the pump will kick on again.

    There is no CSV valve installed between the pump and the tank and the pump sits in a well housing and its bout 1 foot above grade.

    As mentioned in my original post the water quality is real bad and I'm going to install a multi-filtration system much like the last 4 on the bottom of this webpage: http://www.crystalquest.com/whole-ho...er-filters.htm, or something like the one at the top of this page:
    http://www.equinox-products.com/Pure...tionSystem.htm

    I know this filtration system will decrease the pressure even more, and judging by your responses the well pump and the size of the bladder tank seem largely irrelevant. I agree that the water main coming off the bladder tank into the house should be upgraded from 3/4" to a 1" line, as that will help significantly.

    My biggest concern is that the water flow rate will always be restricted as the bladder tank has to draw the water through a whole house water filter, and this will decrease even more with a larger system. Therefore I'm contemplating installing a inside storage tank. This should emilminate the draw/restriction problems encountered by the water filtration system.

    I have a who worked as a plumber for several years (but is not a licensed plumber) and he suggested the following: "Install 200 gallon tank with a float valve to shut it off when full, then a check valve, and pump out the bottom controlled with a pressure switch, small pressure tank, into the house plumbing. The well water would also be plumbed into that pressure tank, with a spring loaded check valve to keep your storage tank pump from feeding back into the well water supply.
    The pressure switch would turn on the storage tank pump when the well water pressure was low or non-existant."

    And another friend suggested a "booster pump, a nother pressure switch and an addioional bladder tank?"

    Needless to say I'm not sure what the hell to do! Any advice?

    Thanks,
    Steve

  9. #9
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Steve, you say "My biggest concern is that the water flow rate will always be restricted as the bladder tank has to draw the water through a whole house water filter,". A pressure tank doesn't draw water, it stores water that the well pump delivers to it. If your pump is a jet pump, it isn't sucking water through the tank is it? If you have a submersible pump (in the well), it pushes water up to the tank.

    Your pressure switch settings seem to be 46/52 (on/off). The two numbers should be 20 lbs from each other like 30/50, and the air pressure in the pressure tank should be 29-28 psi with no water in the tank.

    You should not buy that water treatment equipment. It is way overpriced and uses mixed beds which is a bad idea. It is not good for your needs. You should get water tests for hardness, iron and pH at least. Then post the results.

    Yes you need a 1" main line. I suggest PE (polyethylene) pipe that you buy in a roll for as long as you need and it should be 160 psi rated.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  10. #10
    Test, Don't Guess! cacher_chick's Avatar
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    He has not yet learned how to check the tank pressure.

    If it is a bladder tank, there is a schrader valve near the top of the tank. The tank must be drained completely off all water, then the bladder pressure is measured with an automotive-style tire pressure gauge at the schrader valve.

    If there is not a schrader valve, then you will likely note that the tank has an inlet pipe and and outlet pipe. If that's the case, it's not a bladder tank.

  11. #11
    DIY Junior Member steve2278's Avatar
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    Default Increasing Pressure?

    Cacher, you're exactly right. I didn't know how to check the pressure...until I read your post. Here I am looking all around for a pressure gauge and I had no idea an automotive-style gauge is what you use??? Thanks!

    It's definitely a bladder tank based on what you describe. And based on what Gary said its confirmed as the pump draws the water from the well and then forces it into the tank. The tank doesn't draw the water.

    I'm going to take a few water samples tomorrow and send them out for testing and then post the results here...maybe Gary would be interested in design a filtration system for me?

    After I take the samples I plan on bleaching the well, though I'm not sure exactly how this is done? I tried taking pictures of my well assembly but couldn't upload them for some reason? However, here are 2 pictures I took with my cell phone 2 months ago BEFORE I installed the water filter, though the resolution isn't great.

    My question is when bleaching the well can't I simply remove that top 3/4" cap and then feed a tube down there hooked to a funnel and then pour the water/bleach solution down that?...or do I have to remove the entire flange and pour it down the casing directly?

    Thanks,
    Steve
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    My question is when bleaching the well can't I simply remove that top 3/4" cap and then feed a tube down there hooked to a funnel and then pour the water/bleach solution down that?...or do I have to remove the entire flange and pour it down the casing directly?
    What you have is a two inch deep well system. There is a single pipe jet down in that two inch pipe hanging on either 1" or 1-1/4" (hopefully) galvanized pipe. You cannot pour bleach into your well without removing all of the above. This is a job that needs to be done with a pump hoist and a professional. It is not an easy job and if you move that blue gadget (casing adaptor) on top of the well, you will then HAVE to pull it.

    bob...

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    Previous member sammyhydro11's Avatar
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    Speedbump is right about what you have. Even if you took that plug off the well head or removed the well head it self, you would only be chlorinating the water in the 1 1/4" pipe and the water between the 2" pipe and the 11/4" pipe. The jet assembly has packers that keep water from shooting down the well when your jet pump turns on and that's what allows the water to be circulated through the jets nozzle.Withot the packers water would be lost down the well. That circulation through the nozzle is what creates the vacuum in the jet and allows water into the system . There is a valve in the jet and a foot valve attached to it and both keep the system under pressure when the pump shuts off. If that nozzle is plugged in the jet it will cause issues with volume and pressure. Seeing that you have an iron problem, the jet's nozzle may be plugged and the jet should be pulled and replaced. With the jet assembly out of the well, you could then properly chlorinate it. Putting a bigger pump on the well will not make any difference if you have a clogged jet. Before you start digging up waterlines, i would have this checked out. Pulling a jet is not a DIY job and should be be done by a pro.

    sammy

    www.tylerwellandpump.com

  14. #14
    DIY Junior Member steve2278's Avatar
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    Default Increasing Pressure?

    Thanks for the advice! I'm new at this well stuff and I never knew these systems were so complex.

    This may sound like a stupid question but "is there any type of mechanism or access fitting my well contractor can install to give me access to the well so that I can bleach it myself in the future?"

    I also never considered that I could have a clogging issue and that could attribute to the rust problem, so I guess I should have that checked as well.
    Thanks for the tips!

  15. #15
    Previous member sammyhydro11's Avatar
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    The clog issue has nothing to do with your rust problem but the other way around. Unless the low pressure created by the jet being clogged is keeping a backwash filter to be properly cleaned.The only way you could properly chlorinate that type of well system would be to remove the drop pipe and the jet assembly.

    sammy

    www.tylerwellandpump.com

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