No air ? flush no fair

One of the most critical elements of an efficient flush is something that we can't see , which is sufficient ventilation and drainage.
It's simple physics, like using your finger to create a vacuum on the end of a straw full of water to keep the water from running out..
Toilets work the same way, if air can't get in , then the water can't get out People are then also surprised to find out that in most cases ventilation is not a constant but rather a constant variable.

I had a client in an apartment building tell me that his toilet works better in the morning than in the afternoon. Logic tells you that as there is more demand on the system there is less ventilation available to each individual fixture which will affect it's performance.
After installing two identical new toilets in the same house I found that one performed much better than the other. The only variable was the location. When you flush them back to back you can actualy hear the difference in the amount of air coming into the fixture that works better. We've all seen the toilets that fill the bowl almost to the top with slowly swirling water and needs a massive amount of water before it flushes .Next time notice how quiet it is when it does that.You can actualy hear that there's hardly any air getting to the fixture.
I've converted close to 400 toilets to dual flush in the past two years and the performance is all over the map.Although toilets that are up-stairs generally work better than those in basements.( There's more gravity up there ) I've had some very old American Standard toilets out-perform newer toilets just because they have better drainage and ventilation.
Bottom line is, you can't allways blame the toilet for poor performance. There a lot going on behind walls and under floors that you can't see that also affects the end result.

Lo Flo Jo said:

After installing two identical new toilets in the same house I found that one performed much better than the other. The only variable was the location. .

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The true test is if you swapped the 2 toilets and see if the toilets are truely identical . Change each toilet location and see if the location really matters ,or just one toilet has less flaws in it.

air

The volume of air in a house, even without the inevitable leakage is so great that it would be almost impossible to create a noticable "vacuum" in the house. Trapped air in the drain line will ALWAYS affect the operation of any drain.

krow said:

The true test is if you swapped the 2 toilets and see if the toilets are truely identical . Change each toilet location and see if the location really matters ,or just one toilet has less flaws in it.

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In my experience it is not unusual for identical toilets in the same house to perform differently.Of course there is never a complete vacuum in the system but the variation in ventilation is incremental not on and off.
Some fixtures have better ventilation and drainage by virtue of location

The lack of a vent does not significantly affect how a toilet flushes. Vacuum is quite powerful, so it the vent pipe is lacking, or blocked, the flush quickly siphons the trap, and there you have your wide open vent.'


A partially clogged drain, on other hand, can result in funny things happening.

jimbo said:

The lack of a vent does not significantly affect how a toilet flushes. Vacuum is quite powerful, so it the vent pipe is lacking, or blocked, the flush quickly siphons the trap, and there you have your wide open vent.'


A partially clogged drain, on other hand, can result in funny things happening.

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If that's the case the building code puts plumbers through a lot of trouble for something so insignificant
I'm surprised to hear a plumber say ventilation is not significant.
If you've ever watched Holmes on Holmes
I think you'd find big Mike would disagree, and so do I

air

quote; If you've ever watched Holmes on Holmes
I think you'd find big Mike would disagree, and so do I

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I have watched him and the only thing I have seen, and heard, is that he is the only contractor who has ever done anything correctly. Asking him for advice might be one level up from a Home Depot aisle person. We did not say a vent is not important. What we DID say is that a toilet, or any thing else for that matter would drain MUCH BETTER without a vent. But that is the problem because they would drain so good they would pull the water out of the traps. A vent is not there to make the sink, or whatever, drain better, it is to protect the water level in the trap as a health issue. As I told a person who had installed a tub on the upper level and then ran a small drain down to the basement and wanted me to install a trap and connect it there, "If I did it, you would have to hold onto the baby in the tub, because it is going to suck everything within 5 feet of the tub down the drain."

Lo Flo Joe said:

If that's the case the building code puts plumbers through a lot of trouble for something so insignificant
I'm surprised to hear a plumber say ventilation is not significant.
If you've ever watched Holmes on Holmes
I think you'd find big Mike would disagree, and so do I

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If you were around in '98, you would know that indoor plumbing was initially installed without vents. Worked great...but oh the smell! So God invented vents. ( by the way, I am referring to 1898!)

jimbo said:

If you were around in '98, you would know that indoor plumbing was initially installed without vents. Worked great...but oh the smell! So God invented vents. ( by the way, I am referring to 1898!)

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My applologies , no disrespect intended
I didn't know that you've been around since 1898 ?

hj said:

quote; If you've ever watched Holmes on Holmes
I think you'd find big Mike would disagree, and so do I

I have watched him and the only thing I have seen, and heard, is that he is the only contractor who has ever done anything correctly. Asking him for advice might be one level up from a Home Depot aisle person. We did not say a vent is not important. What we DID say is that a toilet, or any thing else for that matter would drain MUCH BETTER without a vent. But that is the problem because they would drain so good they would pull the water out of the traps. A vent is not there to make the sink, or whatever, drain better, it is to protect the water level in the trap as a health issue. As I told a person who had installed a tub on the upper level and then ran a small drain down to the basement and wanted me to install a trap and connect it there, "If I did it, you would have to hold onto the baby in the tub, because it is going to suck everything within 5 feet of the tub down the drain."

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Mike Holmes one level up from a store clerk , ouch

Lo Flo Joe said:

If you've ever watched Holmes on Holmes
I think you'd find big Mike would disagree, and so do I

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First of all "Big Mike" is not a plumber, He is instructed of the plumbing codes, so he presses them.

Secondly, Do you really think anybody on ths board can go to a clients home to replace a faucet and start ripping out the cabinets because they were installed wrong, then have to rewire the kitchen, to only find out that the panel needs to be badly updated, only to find out that the attic has the wrong insulation and have to call the health authorities. Now the ceilings have to come down because there is no vapour barrier. Then to find out that the shingles were poorly installed 4 years ago.

All this at the clients expense. So what "big Mike" says, means very little to me. He makes good trades men look bad.
(I'm not about to rebuild someones home, at my expense , all because I went to replace a kitchen faucet.)


As the old saying goes,
You get what you pay for

krow said:

First of all "Big Mike" is not a plumber, He is instructed of the plumbing codes, so he presses them.

Secondly, Do you really think anybody on ths board can go to a clients home to replace a faucet and start ripping out the cabinets because they were installed wrong, then have to rewire the kitchen, to only find out that the panel needs to be badly updated, only to find out that the attic has the wrong insulation and have to call the health authorities. Now the ceilings have to come down because there is no vapour barrier. Then to find out that the shingles were poorly installed 4 years ago.

All this at the clients expense. So what "big Mike" says, means very little to me. He makes good trades men look bad.
(I'm not about to rebuild someones home, at my expense , all because I went to replace a kitchen faucet.)


As the old saying goes,
You get what you pay for

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If everybody got what they payed for "Big Mike" wouldn't have a show

Poor draining is not caused by a lack of vent.
It is caused by a clogged line...

Redwood said:

Poor sraining is not caused by a lack of vent.
It is caused by a clogged line...

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It's a combination

Lo Flo Joe said:

If everybody got what they payed for "Big Mike" wouldn't have a show

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Ask yourself, how much did the person that got the raw end of the deal haggle with the original quote?

Here is a scenario: 3 quotes were given to a client from 3 different contractors to finish a basement apartment.

The 1st quote comes in at a whopping $75,000

2nd quote comes in at $62,700

3rd quote comes in at $37,000

Wow what a great deal at $37,000! Nobody can beat that price!

.............. or can they?

People with no brains an a tight wallet will choose 37000. You know the people I'm talking about , The ones that squeak when they walk. Nobody, and I mean nobody will work for nothing or where they can't make enough to cover their expenses. The gift of gab can promise wonders,........ but can it deliver.? These folks get whats coming to them.

Bottom line, if the homeowner is not willing to spend the right amount of money, then the contractor has no choice but to become a crook to make ends meet. Don't get me wrong, but I know there are crooks to start with. I have to bail out relatives that got taken for a ride because the contractors gave them a price that blinded them, and then I come in at triple the original quote, just to fix all the screw-ups and I become the bad guy.

I personally would walk away from any job that a client says he can have done for half my price.

I know what you mean about the sqeakers and I couldn't agree more , if you're cheap you deserve what you get,

Trouble is that's not allways the case.

The government is a good example of not getting your moneys worth.
You pay them rediculous amounts of money to manage the economy and even with all their experience and so called expertise they still manage to run the economy into the ditch and then wonder how it happened.

Look how many people lost their life savings recently while they were following the advice of well paid financial experts who should have known better and should have had the expert foresight to see this mess coming

Why not settle this empircally? Time how long it takes to do a flush. Then temporarily seal the vent stack with duct tape and time it a second time. Compare times.

David

Lo Flo Joe said:

It's a combination

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Not really If the drain wasn't clogged it would never happen even without a vent.
The vent protects the trap seal and may mask other problems.

Redwood said:

Not really If the drain wasn't clogged it would never happen even without a vent.
The vent protects the trap seal and may mask other problems.

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Wikipedia
What is a vent for a toilet and where would it be located?

Answer
A vent for a toilet allows air to pass through the drainage system so that when you flush one toilet it doesn't suck the water out of all the other toilets in the house. Also, and more importantly without a vent a vacuum would be created when flushing that would potentially pull back sewer gas.

That' a wikipedea definition

Redwood your history on this forum speaks for itself. You don't have to look far to see that you have a problem with understanding and following the rules of civil engagement set out in this forum.
Your lack of respect reeks of insecurity and is a bad reflection on all the other pro's who are giving constructive feedback to readers.
I'm sure you will have a snappy intelligent reply to this so go ahead and prove my point.

prices

If the person wants a cheaper price, I tell them I can give them the names of a couple of cheaper plumbers, but my price does not change. For any ONE fixture, a vent is not necessary for proper drainage. In fact, because of the physical laws governing siphons, they will usually drain much better. That is the problem, therefore vents were introduced to prevent the siphon from emptying the trap. The situation of POSSIBLE siphoning of other drain traps, is completely different situation and COULD be avoided by a central common vent, if individual vents were not required. IF the drain is obstructed AND there is not an individual vent, then the fixture is effectively "double trapped" and THAT is why it will not drain, and the lack of a vent is just an indicator that there are multiple problems. AND in that situation, an air admittance valve, or Studor vent is just as ineffective, and will give the same symptoms, as the lack of a vent.