Well Retention Tank questions (PICS included)

Below are pictures of my well retention tank.

I have a few questions:

1. What type of tank is this?
2. What is the lifespan of this type of tank? I believe it is about 15-16 years old.
3. How do I know if needs to be replaced? Are there any warning signs?

My well company came out today for an annual maintenance checkup.

He said the air needed to be adjusted in the tank.
He drained the tank and then added air with a compressor.

He said the pressure settings were:
Pump goes on at 52 psi; off at at 72 psi
Is that correct? I thought tanks were typically on at 40 psi, off at 60psi?

He said when I need to replace the tank I should use the bladder type tanks. I guess my current one isn't.
He said their price to install is about $1100. Sound about right?
They use a Well-X-Trol WX-203 tank.

Thanks for the help.
mike

Pictures links:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3386/3241912521_8134f274a4.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3523/3241912973_5cba408e34_b.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3425/3241912033_dcab44104f.jpg


<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/mrmichaeljmoore/3241912521/" title="DSCF3700 by mrmichaeljmoore, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3386/3241912521_8134f274a4.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="DSCF3700" /></a>

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/mrmichaeljmoore/3241912973/" title="DSCF3706 by mrmichaeljmoore, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3523/3241912973_5cba408e34_b.jpg" width="768" height="1024" alt="DSCF3706" /></a>

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/mrmichaeljmoore/3241912033/" title="DSCF3699 by mrmichaeljmoore, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3425/3241912033_dcab44104f.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="DSCF3699" /></a>

It appears to me that it is a standard non-bladder tank. There is nothing wrong with having a non-bladder tank. It's like a water heater, when it starts leaking then you throw it away. Most (but not all) have a device for automatically adding air.

I wouldn't worry about it until something doesn't work properly. The best thing you can do now is familiarize yourself with it's normal operation.

Hydro Pneumatic means air over water. These type tanks usually have two pipes, a pipe on one side comes from the well, and a pipe on the other side of the tank goes to the house. These are plain tanks with nothing separating the air from the water. Since air is touching water inside the tank, the air will mix with the water and be taken out with the flow of water. These type tanks require some kind of air make up system to continually replace the air. The most common air make up system is the bleeder orifice style. A bleeder orifice is a fitting that goes down in the well about 5' below the surface. This fitting has a small hole that is covered with a flap or a ball from the inside of the pipe when pressure is applied. This keeps the bleeder orifice closed when the pump is running and there is pressure in the pipe.

There must always be a one way check valve on a submersible pump. The bleeder orifice works in conjunction with an additional check valve that is installed above ground before the pressure tank. On the inlet side of this check valve there should be a "schrader valve". A "schrader valve" looks like the valve stem on a car tire. When the pump shuts off, the above ground check valve closes and keeps the pressure in the pressure tank from going back down the well. As soon as this above ground check valve closes, the pressure in the pipe down hole will be at low or no pressure, and the ball or flap in the bleeder orifice will open. As water drains out of the bleeder orifice into the well, the schrader valve will allow air to be sucked into the pipe. The water in the pipe will then drain down to the level of the bleeder orifice in the well, so all the pipe from the bleeder orifice to the schrader valve will be filled with air. .

When someone uses water from the other side of the tank, the pressure will drop from 60 to 40 PSI as the amount of water available from the draw down in the tank is being used. When the pump starts at 40 PSI, the pressure in the pipe closes the bleeder orifice and the air that was in this top section of pipe is forced through the above ground check valve and into the pressure tank. Each time the pump cycles on, more air is injected into the pressure tank. If too much air is injected into the tank, soon air will start to come out the faucets and will blow a glass out of you hand or blast air at you in the shower. Therefore another device called an "Air Volume Control" or AVC is used to bleed any excess air out of the tank. The AVC is usually installed about half way up the side of the tank through a 1 ½ inch fitting. Sometimes the pressure gauge or even the pressure switch will be attached to the AVC as well. Although sometimes the pressure switch and gauge are attached to the pipe going into the tank, and the AVC will only have a small brass fitting sticking out of it.

Inside the tank on the AVC there is a float on a 12" rod that drops when the water level is low. When this float is in the low position, the AVC allows excess air out of the tank through the little brass fitting outside the tank. When the float on the AVC is up, this little brass fitting is closed so as not to allow water out of the AVC. All four of these items, the bleeder orifice, the above ground check valve, the schrader valve, and the AVC must be working properly for the air make up system to function. If the AVC is not working, you will get air in the faucets in the house. If either the bleeder orifice, above ground check valve, or the schrader valve are not working, the tank will become "waterlogged" and the pump will cycle on and off very rapidly. Cycling rapidly is what destroys the pump and motor.

A bladder tank does not have any of the parts needed for air charging. The air cannot get out of the bladder, which makes for less maintenance and less chances for problems.

Hydro pneumatic tanks are one of the oldest style pressure tanks. These type tanks are now only used in certain areas where water quality requires them. Mixing air with water in these type tanks is used to reduce "rotten egg" smell from sulphur or other things in the water. If your system does not require mixing air with water for water quality purposes, then a bladder type pressure tank can eliminate several moving and wearable parts, which can make the system more reliable and require less maintenance.

https://terrylove.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20849

I hope you meant $1100 for a WX-302 not WX-203. It is still a lot of money for either size tank. You can do these type systems now with a much smaller tank if you also use a Cycle Stop Valve. The entire pump control kit shown below only list for $560 and will do a much better job than a room full of expensive pressure tanks.

The only thing I can see that Amtrol did that wasn't very nice was putting that 1/4" fitting so high up on the tank. Otherwise it's a normal old pneumatic tank. It will waterlog like others have explained unless you keep adding air somehow.

I wouldn't do anything at this time except look into the CSV. The price this guy quoted you was a bit extravigant.

bob...

A few follow up questions:
1. Why does my tank come on/off at such high pressure? What determines the on/off pressures? Is the current setup (52/72) too high or unsafe?

2. I've been doing research into getting the tank replaced.
but I wanted to get suggestions from the experts...
What brands of tanks do you suggest? Is Well-X-Trol good?
Should I just replace the tank with a bladder style tank or are there other setups I should consider?

3. I see two guys recommended CSV? I am not familiar with this? Is this a better setup than what I currently have? How do I find a contractor who does this sort of installation?

Thanks for the help.
mike

Looking at the tank in the photo, I'm not too sure your tank has an AVC valve and just may require you to add air every once in a while. You can find out by listening to the tank as the pump cycles and see if it hisses. If so, the set-up must be changed when going to a bladder tank, otherwise, you will be pumping air into your water.

I don't think Xtrol is the best tank and suggest you consider a well-mate. Regarding safety, I do not see a PSI relief valve in the photo ... some older houses don't have them. If that is the case, have a relief valve added ASAP because it is very dangerous to operate without one.

I recognize the service label on the tank and would say you live in CT. PM me what town you live in and I may be able to give you the name of a good well guy.

Ken

That tank is a standard air over water tank with no means of adding air automatically. The only way to get air into the tank when needed is through that schrader valve near the top next to the gauge.

I think Well X Trol is one of the two finest tanks on the market and wouldn't give you a nickel for a truck load of Well Mates. Just my opinion, but I sure have switched out a ton of Sta-Rites, States and Well Mates over the years. It's pretty easy to get a handle on which brand excels in quality when you always have the same ones in your junk pile.

bob...

mrmichaeljmoore said:

3. I see two guys recommended CSV? I am not familiar with this? Is this a better setup than what I currently have? How do I find a contractor who does this sort of installation?

Click to expand...

"Hydro pneumatic tanks are one of the oldest style pressure tanks. These type tanks are now only used in certain areas where water quality requires them. Mixing air with water in these type tanks is used to reduce "rotten egg" smell from sulphur or other things in the water. If your system does not require mixing air with water for water quality purposes, then a bladder type pressure tank can eliminate several moving and wearable parts, which can make the system more reliable and require less maintenance."

The CSV eliminates the problems associated with bladder tank systems. One of these problems is that the tank is never large enough to reduce the cycling sufficiently to make the pump system last as long as it should. The other problem is that cycling causes the bladder in the tank to bend back and forth multiple times per day, which causes the bladder to break like bending a wire back and forth until it breaks. Adding a Cycle Stop Valve to the bladder tank system eliminates cycling, which reduces the size of pressure tank required. Eliminating the cycling with a CSV also makes the bladder in the tank, pump, motor, control box, and pressure switch last much longer than normal.

So yes the CSV would be a much better set up than you have now. You will find a contractor who does these type of installations by locating one that keeps up with new technology, understands that the CSV is good for you and the pump system, and stands behind his work.

I agree Well Mate makes a good tank but, I don't think it is any better than a Well-X-Trol. I also agree that you need a pressure relief valve, and switching to a bladder type tank may mean you need to plug the bleeder orifice and remove the above ground check valve. The pressure switch is what determines the on/off settings, and no 52/72 is not too high.

I think Well X Trol is one of the two finest tanks on the market and wouldn't give you a nickel for a truck load of Well Mates.

Click to expand...

Bob:
Please tell me why you don't like these. I have seen cutaway sections of both the xtrol and well mate and it appears the well mate is superior. I also like that the bladder doesn't touch the side of the tank and so it doesn't sweat like the xtrol. Have you had issues with the life span?
Ken

Are you sure you don't mean the Well Rite? That's a Flexcon metal tank. The Well Mate is the Fiberglas tank with the flimsy bag that is replacable and doesn't last long. Unless they have made some major changes, they didn't last long at all.

bob...

I agree with Bob, I have had many more failures with Well Mate than with Well-X-Trol. With WellX the air is on top of the diaphragm. The only place the bladder touches the side of the tank with Xtrol tanks is where the bladder is attached. The portion of the bladder that moves up and down does not touch the side of the tank.

With Well Mate the air is in the bag and water surrounds it. As the bag is compressed it wrinkles up. As it decompresses the bag expands and straightens out. The part where it wrinkles up is where it can develop a tear. The biggest problem I have had with Well Mate is losing air out the top around the schrader valve. That is the only place where water does not surround the bag, which lets the air get out.

I have a Well Mate WM6 at my house. With a Cycle Stop Valve the system doesn't cycle much, so the bag has not torn. After about 3 years I started losing air. I air it up about once per year. The bag holds air fine, so the leak must be at the schrader connection.

With a WellXTrol, only the bottom part of the tank has water touching it. With the Well Mate, water touches the side of the tank from top to bottom. I don't know why the Well X Trol would sweat more unless it is just because it is steel and the Well Mate is FRP (Fiberglass Reinforced Plastic).

Don't overlook the fact that your system is not broken and there is no need to do anything to it at this time. Shut off the pump power and completely drain the water from the tank every 2-3 months. The air charge will be re-established when the pump is turned back on.

Maintaining the air charge is all you need to do to keep the system running as it was designed to.

speedbump said:

Are you sure you don't mean the Well Rite? That's a Flexcon metal tank. The Well Mate is the Fiberglas tank with the flimsy bag that is replacable and doesn't last long. Unless they have made some major changes, they didn't last long at all.

bob...

Click to expand...

Good catch Bob:

Yes I meant the metal Well Rite tank. I feel better hearing the problem is with the fiberglass tank.

Ken

CSV, try it you'll like it!

An added plus when using a CSV is that you'll get a constant pressure like city water pressure. If you're married you're wife will love it.

The reason the Flexcon is a good tank, is because it is almost an exact copy of a Well-X-Trol. Seems to be a business model for the company, which is not appreciated by those having their products copied, to say the least.

Draining a standard type tank regularly is mandatory to maintain the proper air to water ratio. You will need to pull a plug or the gauge at the top of the tank, which allows air in, to properly drain the tank. If you neglect to do this soon enough, the waterlogged tank will cause the pump to go off and on rapidly such as click, click, click. Just one day of letting it work like this and you should be prepared to buy a new pump.

Such routine maintenance is not required with bladder tanks, which makes them more forgiving. You just have to set up the system originally to limit pump cycling, so you don't pop the bladder in the tank.

Good catch Bob:

Yes I meant the metal Well Rite tank. I feel better hearing the problem is with the fiberglass tank.

Ken

Click to expand...

Whew, glad you cleared that up. I was hoping we were both on the same page, and we are.

bob...

cacher_chick said:

Don't overlook the fact that your system is not broken and there is no need to do anything to it at this time. Shut off the pump power and completely drain the water from the tank every 2-3 months. The air charge will be re-established when the pump is turned back on.

Maintaining the air charge is all you need to do to keep the system running as it was designed to.

Click to expand...

Just want to clarify..........

All I need to do is drain the tank dry every few months?
Then turn the pump back on and it will recharge automatically?

Do I need to use an air compressor to add air?

The reason why I ask, is when the service company was out about a month ago to service the tank, he drained it dry using the air compressor, then added air with a compressor when he turned the pump back on.

thanks.
mike

The problem is that the air will be absorbed by the water over time. Blowing into it with a compressor will add air, but who is to say how many months the charge will be adequate?

Ideally the tank should have a air volume control valve to regulate the air charge. Meanwhile, it's free for you to add air to the system every couple of months. Draining the tank dry and then allowing it to refill will trap an air charge. How often you really need to do this will be determined by the absorption rate of the air to water.