it's interesting to hear that an R53 can work in those cold clims. I wouldn't have guessed it due to water inlet temp. I told you "they" would jump you within 48 hours... only took "them" 24! Put them on ignore and life is good here. Surprised mngmt allows this to happen so easily.
Just "happened" to have every hot water appliance in my house running as of about 30 minites ago. Rinnai R75 display said water flow was 6.3gpm with every fixture in use, sure inlet water temp is about 56 degrees today. No problems there skippy. Woohoo, codes met! But then again it's 73 degrees here in Texas and I got to drop the top to the Z3 and enjoy the fresh air.
Not sure who is having more fun stirring the pot, us or them. Looks like them !
Not worth the argument my friend. The guy and his friend are unable to back up their wild claims with anything other than useless and unfounded information. They make everything bigger in Texas including ......
Last edited by nhmaster; 02-07-2009 at 01:25 PM.
Q: What is so hard to understand about having to provide hot water ( 110-130 depending on your code) to every fixture at the same time?
A: What is the test per "your code? Pressure and volume requirements? All fixtures on full blast simultaneously? Adequate for the use intended requirement? Just what does "your" code require?
This is the United States of America. There is no United States of America plumbing code. The plumbing code of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts applies to me, so that is my plumbing code. If you do not live in Massachusetts, you have to use "your" own applicable plumbing code.
The Massachusets plumbing code does not specify that you have to simultaneously test all fixtures turned to full volume. The only thing specified is the main water pipe size that is based on fixture demand factors and the building ulilization factor. Minimum pipe sizes for each fixture type are also specified.
I have hot water at every hot water fixture in my home. Flow rates are adequate for the intended use.
MA plumbing code trivia: A bidet requires a backflow device in the water supply. A dishwashing machine drain line is only required to have a high loop (AKA no air gap required). Plumbers not licensed as a plumber in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts are not permitted to refer to any plumbing codes that do not apply to Massachusetts residents MGL Section 8.
Water pipe sizing
Water Pipe Sizing example taken from the Massachusetts Plumbing Code. The Massachsetts Plumbing Code is followed in Massachusetts. "Your" code may be different, but it does not apply to property located in Massachusetts!
Last edited by Ladiesman271; 02-08-2009 at 01:12 PM.
Simply put, my gas tankless water heater is specified to provide 2.09 GPM with a 90 degree temperature rise.
The coldest my incoming water has been is 40 degrees F.
The highest temperature of hot water allowed by the Massachusetts Plumbing code is 130 degrees F.
40 degrees incoming water temperature plus a 90 degree F temperature rise equals 130 degrees F.
The above meets the volume of hot water required for the intended use based on the lowest yearly incoming water temperatures provided to this residence (AKA winter season low).
Water pipe sizing
Water pipe Sizing example that conforms to the MA Plumbing Code
Massachusetts Plumbing Code
Last edited by Ladiesman271; 02-08-2009 at 11:47 PM.
How can I possibly argue with your brilliance. You are of course correct in every way and me, a licensed master plumber for 36 years, A plumbers apprentice teacher as well as a certified plumbers certification instructor has absolutly no idea what I am talking about.
Let's go through this one last time.
You have to provide continuous flow at continuous temperature to ALL FIXTURES, AT THE SAME TIME. Yes, Yes you do. Call the plumbing board. Ask them. They will tell you and you will still freekin argue the point. You can not have a residence where fixtures can only be run one or two at a time. Nor can the temperature at the fixtures fluctuate due to increased or decreased load. Yes Wally. That's what they pay us the big bucks for. Just because you bought into a load of crap don't make it so.
It always amazes me when people quote parts of the plumbing code and leave out other parts, or misquote it. For example I always hear "I live in southern Illinois we are not required to follow the plumbing code." or " We can do our own plumbing here with out getting permits or hiring a licensed plumber." No where in the Illinois code it says if you live in some rural area that you are allowed to do plumbing yourself or the way you feel is the right way. You may not have a permit office with the town you live in but the county does, and if they don't I bet the state does.
Other excuse I hear for not getting permits. " They only want to get more money from me. In reality I do not need a permit if I do the work myself." Again that is not true, they want you to get a permit so they can inspect the job and ensure it was put in a professional, proper and safe manor. There is a city here that requires you to get permits and requires you to have a licensed plumber and does not charge a dime for the permit.
I do get many phone calls of DIY's and handymen asking me if I can get the permit or let them use my license number so they can get a permit, and they will pay me a "fee". This is against the law as well. I refuse to put my license on the line like that.
As for the good of tankless water heaters and the idea they save space. It is all hype. When they first came out , the hype was "In Europe they are very commen. The US is so far behind technolgy." In Europe lots of people live in small homes or row homes that do not afford a lot of space for a tank, thats why they have a tankless unit hanging on their kitchen wall. Tankless water heaters properly sized can work and will work propelry sizing does not mean buying the biggest one and assumeing it will supply you all your hot water needs. In many cases in areas where the temputare rise is 70 degrees or higher you may need two tanks, and if the flow rate demand is to high for two units you may have to go to three units. About flow rates, when a home is built in any state and all states follow one of the three major codes out there which all require a minum presure during peak demand in the home.
Here is the one from Illinois:
Section 890.1210 Design of a Building Water Distribution System
a)Design and Installation. The design and installation of the hot and cold water building distribution systems shall provide a volume of water at the required rates and pressures to ensure the safe, efficient and satisfactory operation of fixtures, fittings, appliances and other connected devices during periods of peak use. No distribution pipe or pipes shall be installed or permitted outside of a building or in an exterior wall unless provisions are made to protect such pipe from freezing, including but not limited to wrap-on insulation or heat tape tracer line or wire.
b) Size of Water Distribution Pipes. The fixture supply for each fixture shall be at least the minimum size provided in Appendix A, Table D. The size of all other water distribution pipes shall be determined by calculating the water supply demand (in water supply fixture units) for that portion of the water distribution system served by the pipe. Using Appendix A, Tables M, N, O, P and Q, the cumulative water supply demand or load shall be calculated for all fixtures, piping, valves and fittings served by the water distribution pipe, and the pipe shall meet the minimum size provided in Appendix A, Table N or O, as applicable. Exception: As an alternative to using Tables M, N, O, P and Q to design and size the piping in the water distribution system, the system may be designed and sized employing current engineering practices, provided the design/plans are approved in writing by an Illinois licensed professional engineer, an Illinois licensed architect or an individual Certified in Plumbing Engineering (C.I.P.E.) by the American Society of Plumbing Engineers and approved in writing by the Department.
c) Minimum Water Pressure. The minimum constant water service pressure on the discharge side of the water meter shall be (at least) 20 p.s.i.; and the minimum constant water pressure at each fixture shall be at least 8 p.s.i. or the minimum recommended by the fixture manufacturer.
Good post and points, but it will surely be ignored.
Another thing about European plumbing is that often those small row houses have only a single bath and small kitchen. Codes in Europe are less strict also.
This whole argument has just plain reached the point of stupid. Untill the plumbing inspector knocks on their door both of these guys are going to continue spewing the same uneducated propaganda.
You really reached deep up beyond your spincter muscle to pull out this batch of brilliance...
Flushing is required on tankless as well as tank type water heaters...
The odors you mention are caused by sulfur reducing bacteria. The locations these bacteria can set up shop is not limited to tank type water heaters. Wells and even faucets may have a odorous bacteria colony set up a home.
Water that has been heated has had its mineral content precipitated out of it and like RO water is hungry in terms of aggressiveness. It will even leach lead out of pre lead free solder joints... Your tankless is included in this aggresiveness. BTW RO water is a highly desired drinking water...
White plastic particles?? Put down the crack pipe Laddy! Snap out of it! For several years in the 90's water heaters by many manufacturers were made with a defective dip tub installed in them. All persons who had water heaters with this problem were notified as required by law of a class action lawsuit and last date for filing claims for relief under the settlement agreement was December 31, 2000.
Last edited by Redwood; 02-07-2009 at 10:23 PM.