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Thread: tankless-luke warm shower

  1. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by gregsauls View Post
    A toilet that needs hot water??? What are you smoking? Bidet maybe is what you tried to type? Guess nhmaster gets added to the ignore list. Just more FUD

    In the car or at the bar, you need Mighty Putty!

  2. #77
    Geologist sjsmithjr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nhmaster View Post
    I'm waiting to read just one single, coherent, intelligent defense of the facts.
    Do you have to be a plumber to get a duct tape helmet? I'd kinda like to have one too.
    -Sam Smith
    Licensed Professional Geologist - AL, TN, KY

  3. #78
    Master Plumber nhmaster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sjsmithjr View Post
    Do you have to be a plumber to get a duct tape helmet? I'd kinda like to have one too.

    Nope, you can make your own. Or maybe you can get one from------->


    Billy Mays !

  4. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by nhmaster View Post
    Even if you take the toilet out of the picture (and I admit the error) you are still at 13 gpm. So how's that work slick?

    How you going to defend that intelligently?

    I'm waiting to read just one single, coherent, intelligent defense of the facts.
    brosnt1,
    it's interesting to hear that an R53 can work in those cold clims. I wouldn't have guessed it due to water inlet temp. I told you "they" would jump you within 48 hours... only took "them" 24! Put them on ignore and life is good here. Surprised mngmt allows this to happen so easily.

    Others:
    Just "happened" to have every hot water appliance in my house running as of about 30 minites ago. Rinnai R75 display said water flow was 6.3gpm with every fixture in use, sure inlet water temp is about 56 degrees today. No problems there skippy. Woohoo, codes met! But then again it's 73 degrees here in Texas and I got to drop the top to the Z3 and enjoy the fresh air.
    "Dude, we can fix that. My old man is a TV repairman, he's got the ultimate set of tools!" --Jeff Spicoli


    http://web.me.com/greg.saulsbury/ChosatongaSpeaks

  5. #80

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    Not sure who is having more fun stirring the pot, us or them. Looks like them !

    "Dude, we can fix that. My old man is a TV repairman, he's got the ultimate set of tools!" --Jeff Spicoli


    http://web.me.com/greg.saulsbury/ChosatongaSpeaks

  6. #81
    Geologist sjsmithjr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregsauls View Post
    Just "happened" to have every hot water appliance in my house running as of about 30 minites ago. Rinnai R75 display said water flow was 6.3gpm with every fixture in use, sure inlet water temp is about 56 degrees today. No problems there skippy. Woohoo, codes met!
    I hate to break it to you, but even assuming a modest load of one shower, one clothes washer, one dishwasher, one lav faucet, and one kitchen faucet, you didn't meet code. Do you know why?
    -Sam Smith
    Licensed Professional Geologist - AL, TN, KY

  7. #82
    Master Plumber nhmaster's Avatar
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    Not worth the argument my friend. The guy and his friend are unable to back up their wild claims with anything other than useless and unfounded information. They make everything bigger in Texas including ......
    Last edited by nhmaster; 02-07-2009 at 01:25 PM.

  8. #83
    Master Plumber nhmaster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregsauls View Post
    brosnt1,
    it's interesting to hear that an R53 can work in those cold clims. I wouldn't have guessed it due to water inlet temp. I told you "they" would jump you within 48 hours... only took "them" 24! Put them on ignore and life is good here. Surprised mngmt allows this to happen so easily.

    Others:
    Just "happened" to have every hot water appliance in my house running as of about 30 minites ago. Rinnai R75 display said water flow was 6.3gpm with every fixture in use, sure inlet water temp is about 56 degrees today. No problems there skippy. Woohoo, codes met! But then again it's 73 degrees here in Texas and I got to drop the top to the Z3 and enjoy the fresh air.
    Remember my friend, these forums are to educate and help folks make an informed decision. The out and out misinformation, misdirection and lies from you and your cohort are anything but helpfull. They probably won't allow it to go on much longer. I expect Mark to close this down at any time as well he should.

  9. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by nhmaster View Post
    He is apparantly better at finding obscure meanings than defending his views.

    What is so hard to understand about having to provide hot water ( 110-130 depending on your code) to every fixture at the same time? It's not "MY" code. It is the code. But like most diy hacks he refuses to obey the code and feels that "his" situation is different and therefore justifiable. No amount of cajoling (big word) or logical argument will sway him from his convictions. It's a lot like arguing with a racist skin head. WASTE OF TIME.


    Q: What is so hard to understand about having to provide hot water ( 110-130 depending on your code) to every fixture at the same time?

    A: What is the test per "your code? Pressure and volume requirements? All fixtures on full blast simultaneously? Adequate for the use intended requirement? Just what does "your" code require?


    This is the United States of America. There is no United States of America plumbing code. The plumbing code of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts applies to me, so that is my plumbing code. If you do not live in Massachusetts, you have to use "your" own applicable plumbing code.

    The Massachusets plumbing code does not specify that you have to simultaneously test all fixtures turned to full volume. The only thing specified is the main water pipe size that is based on fixture demand factors and the building ulilization factor. Minimum pipe sizes for each fixture type are also specified.

    I have hot water at every hot water fixture in my home. Flow rates are adequate for the intended use.


    MA plumbing code trivia: A bidet requires a backflow device in the water supply. A dishwashing machine drain line is only required to have a high loop (AKA no air gap required). Plumbers not licensed as a plumber in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts are not permitted to refer to any plumbing codes that do not apply to Massachusetts residents MGL Section 8.

    Water pipe sizing



    Water Pipe Sizing example taken from the Massachusetts Plumbing Code. The Massachsetts Plumbing Code is followed in Massachusetts. "Your" code may be different, but it does not apply to property located in Massachusetts!


    Last edited by Ladiesman271; 02-08-2009 at 01:12 PM.

  10. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by nhmaster View Post
    Remember my friend, these forums are to educate and help folks make an informed decision. The out and out misinformation, misdirection and lies from you and your cohort are anything but helpfull. They probably won't allow it to go on much longer. I expect Mark to close this down at any time as well he should.

    Another prevarication!

    Simply put, my gas tankless water heater is specified to provide 2.09 GPM with a 90 degree temperature rise.

    The coldest my incoming water has been is 40 degrees F.

    The highest temperature of hot water allowed by the Massachusetts Plumbing code is 130 degrees F.

    40 degrees incoming water temperature plus a 90 degree F temperature rise equals 130 degrees F.

    The above meets the volume of hot water required for the intended use based on the lowest yearly incoming water temperatures provided to this residence (AKA winter season low).

    Water pipe sizing



    Water pipe Sizing example that conforms to the MA Plumbing Code


    Massachusetts Plumbing Code


    .
    Last edited by Ladiesman271; 02-08-2009 at 11:47 PM.

  11. #86
    Master Plumber nhmaster's Avatar
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    How can I possibly argue with your brilliance. You are of course correct in every way and me, a licensed master plumber for 36 years, A plumbers apprentice teacher as well as a certified plumbers certification instructor has absolutly no idea what I am talking about.

    Let's go through this one last time.

    You have to provide continuous flow at continuous temperature to ALL FIXTURES, AT THE SAME TIME. Yes, Yes you do. Call the plumbing board. Ask them. They will tell you and you will still freekin argue the point. You can not have a residence where fixtures can only be run one or two at a time. Nor can the temperature at the fixtures fluctuate due to increased or decreased load. Yes Wally. That's what they pay us the big bucks for. Just because you bought into a load of crap don't make it so.

  12. #87
    Illinois Licensed Plumber SewerRatz's Avatar
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    It always amazes me when people quote parts of the plumbing code and leave out other parts, or misquote it. For example I always hear "I live in southern Illinois we are not required to follow the plumbing code." or " We can do our own plumbing here with out getting permits or hiring a licensed plumber." No where in the Illinois code it says if you live in some rural area that you are allowed to do plumbing yourself or the way you feel is the right way. You may not have a permit office with the town you live in but the county does, and if they don't I bet the state does.

    Other excuse I hear for not getting permits. " They only want to get more money from me. In reality I do not need a permit if I do the work myself." Again that is not true, they want you to get a permit so they can inspect the job and ensure it was put in a professional, proper and safe manor. There is a city here that requires you to get permits and requires you to have a licensed plumber and does not charge a dime for the permit.

    I do get many phone calls of DIY's and handymen asking me if I can get the permit or let them use my license number so they can get a permit, and they will pay me a "fee". This is against the law as well. I refuse to put my license on the line like that.

    As for the good of tankless water heaters and the idea they save space. It is all hype. When they first came out , the hype was "In Europe they are very commen. The US is so far behind technolgy." In Europe lots of people live in small homes or row homes that do not afford a lot of space for a tank, thats why they have a tankless unit hanging on their kitchen wall. Tankless water heaters properly sized can work and will work propelry sizing does not mean buying the biggest one and assumeing it will supply you all your hot water needs. In many cases in areas where the temputare rise is 70 degrees or higher you may need two tanks, and if the flow rate demand is to high for two units you may have to go to three units. About flow rates, when a home is built in any state and all states follow one of the three major codes out there which all require a minum presure during peak demand in the home.

    Here is the one from Illinois:

    Section 890.1210 Design of a Building Water Distribution System



    a)Design and Installation. The design and installation of the hot and cold water building distribution systems shall provide a volume of water at the required rates and pressures to ensure the safe, efficient and satisfactory operation of fixtures, fittings, appliances and other connected devices during periods of peak use. No distribution pipe or pipes shall be installed or permitted outside of a building or in an exterior wall unless provisions are made to protect such pipe from freezing, including but not limited to wrap-on insulation or heat tape tracer line or wire.



    b) Size of Water Distribution Pipes. The fixture supply for each fixture shall be at least the minimum size provided in Appendix A, Table D. The size of all other water distribution pipes shall be determined by calculating the water supply demand (in water supply fixture units) for that portion of the water distribution system served by the pipe. Using Appendix A, Tables M, N, O, P and Q, the cumulative water supply demand or load shall be calculated for all fixtures, piping, valves and fittings served by the water distribution pipe, and the pipe shall meet the minimum size provided in Appendix A, Table N or O, as applicable. Exception: As an alternative to using Tables M, N, O, P and Q to design and size the piping in the water distribution system, the system may be designed and sized employing current engineering practices, provided the design/plans are approved in writing by an Illinois licensed professional engineer, an Illinois licensed architect or an individual Certified in Plumbing Engineering (C.I.P.E.) by the American Society of Plumbing Engineers and approved in writing by the Department.



    c) Minimum Water Pressure. The minimum constant water service pressure on the discharge side of the water meter shall be (at least) 20 p.s.i.; and the minimum constant water pressure at each fixture shall be at least 8 p.s.i. or the minimum recommended by the fixture manufacturer.

  13. #88
    Master Plumber nhmaster's Avatar
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    Good post and points, but it will surely be ignored.

    Another thing about European plumbing is that often those small row houses have only a single bath and small kitchen. Codes in Europe are less strict also.

    This whole argument has just plain reached the point of stupid. Untill the plumbing inspector knocks on their door both of these guys are going to continue spewing the same uneducated propaganda.

  14. #89
    Master Plumber Redwood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ladiesman271 View Post
    Another prevarication!

    Simply put, my gas tankless water heater is specified to provide 2.09 GPM with a 90 degree temperature rise.

    The coldest my incoming water has been is 40 degrees F.

    The highest temperature of hot water allowed by the Massachusetts Plumbing code is 130 degrees F.

    40 degrees incoming water temperature plus a 90 degree F temperature rise equals 130 degrees F.

    The above meets the volume of hot water required for the intended use based on the lowest yearly incoming water temperatures provided to this residence (AKA winter season low).
    Laddyman,
    Are you a licensed plumber in the state of Mass?
    Was your installation performed by you in the state of mass?

  15. #90
    Master Plumber Redwood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laddyman271 View Post
    Tank type water heaters are very unsafe. Full of germs and other nasty tidbits.

    Since you mentioned something related to the cost of "proper" maintenance of tankless water heaters, here is a discussion about the "proper" maintenance of a tank type water heater.

    http://www.nashville.gov/water/splash/h2o_heater.htm

    Water heater maintenance

    Water heaters, whether gas or electric, have become more complex and expensive. They also do not seem to last as long as they once did. This is one modern appliance that we couldn't live without, but is "out of sight, out of mind" until we have problems with it.

    Hot water heater flushing

    Maintenance books recommend that the hot water heater be drained (flushed) every six months, but few homeowners bother to do this. Often, it is put in an area that is not as accessible as other appliances. It may or may not be easy to drain, even though all heaters have a hose connection and faucet control at the bottom. This task is not only inconvenient, but often the washer and/or washer seat on the faucet must be replaced after draining. Sometimes the entire faucet assembly will have to be replaced. If this is not done correctly, the unit may leak at the faucet. Furthermore, the unit can be damaged while drained. Unless the customer is fully familiar with servicing these units, one should consult their service representatives at the gas or electric utility before undertaking these tasks.

    Odors

    A heater which is recycled off/on or left off for a period of non-heating may develop offensive odors from sulfur bacteria. The odor is hydrogen sulfide -- "rotten egg odor." This odorous water may be drawn back through cold water faucets as well as the hot water faucet.

    Temperature settings

    The heater thermostat should be set at a reasonable temperature. Scalding of infants and the elderly can be a real hazard, even when the temperature setting is within proper limits. Again, the user should consult with their energy supplier to have the unit set at a safe temperature.

    DO NOT USE HOT WATER FROM THE TAP FOR DRINKING OR COOKING!

    Because warm/hot water is much more corrosive of metals than cold water, one should not use the hot water tap as a source for drinking, cooking or dilution of infant formula. It can be high in metals such as aluminum, iron, lead, copper and zinc. The heater tank also tends to concentrate these metals and precipitate them in layers inside the heater tank. Many tanks have a metal "sacrificial anode." This is designed to wear down and can be an additional source of metals. While it may be a convenient shortcut, water from the heater is not an approved source of drinking water.

    White plastic particles

    It is not unusual for the white plastic (PVC) filler tube inside the heater to disintegrate and discharge small white particles to the faucet aerator screens. These particles can come through not only the hot water lines but the cold water lines as well. These particles may appear to be soft and crumbly, but a good test is to heat this material with a match. PVC will melt; minerals, such as calcium, will not.
    Laddy Man,

    You really reached deep up beyond your spincter muscle to pull out this batch of brilliance...

    Flushing is required on tankless as well as tank type water heaters...

    The odors you mention are caused by sulfur reducing bacteria. The locations these bacteria can set up shop is not limited to tank type water heaters. Wells and even faucets may have a odorous bacteria colony set up a home.

    Water that has been heated has had its mineral content precipitated out of it and like RO water is hungry in terms of aggressiveness. It will even leach lead out of pre lead free solder joints... Your tankless is included in this aggresiveness. BTW RO water is a highly desired drinking water...

    White plastic particles?? Put down the crack pipe Laddy! Snap out of it! For several years in the 90's water heaters by many manufacturers were made with a defective dip tub installed in them. All persons who had water heaters with this problem were notified as required by law of a class action lawsuit and last date for filing claims for relief under the settlement agreement was December 31, 2000.
    Last edited by Redwood; 02-07-2009 at 10:23 PM.

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