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Thread: tankless-luke warm shower

  1. #61
    Master Plumber nhmaster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scuba_Dave View Post
    Well I guess after reading this thread I will never buy a tankless
    I also checked our incoming water temp - after freezing my hands off in the basement washing out a paint brush

    With negative & single temps its hovering around the freezing point
    That's about a 90 degree rise I'd need, & probably another 200a service for tankless

    A decision you will never regret my friend.

  2. #62
    Master Plumber Dunbar Plumbing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ladiesman271 View Post
    Now you have resorted to simply complaining about DIY water heater installations. So all of this complaining is just about money taken away from a plumbers revenue stream?

    I am going to have to give your stock a downgrade to a SELL recommendation!


    I could care less how much work is lost to DIY'rs. There's always going to be job security for me when everyone on the weekend trys to be a plumber.

    I DIY also but I'm not going to do something one time and tell everyone I know all.

    There's plenty of work for aaaaaaallll of us. I just got a call to work on an American water heater, aka craftmaster aka whirlpool.

    It was bought from a supply house, it's the identical one you see at Lowe's. Lady was getting on my nerves and told her to call somebody else, you're killing me.

    I'm off this weekend till the phone rings.

    CHA-CHING! BOO-YAH!

  3. #63
    Master Plumber Dunbar Plumbing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ladiesman271 View Post
    Heck, even I can do that. A modern dishwasher does not use much water not does it fill at a high GPM rate. I never use hot or warm water for the wash, so the only potential issue would be the flow capacity of the main cold water feed to the house.

    Besides, I don't know anyone who ever runs every hot water appliance at the same time. That argument is just a canard!

    Give me a break, Is your name Barney, Fred? Livin' like the Flintstones?

    Very common for homes with large families to run numerous fixtures at the same time.


    Called multi-tasking around a work life and kids. Washing machine running during the time you're home, dishwasher running after supper and time for showers before bed.

    Tell Wilma she's HAWT for me will ya?!

  4. #64
    Extreme DIY Homeowner Scuba_Dave's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Ladiesman271
    Besides, I don't know anyone who ever runs every hot water appliance at the same time. That argument is just a canard!
    Tell THAT to my wife!!! We have no canard
    DIY Handyman (not 4 hire)
    I have enough to do to my own house

  5. #65

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    [QUOTE=master plumber mark;183189]
    Quote Originally Posted by Ladiesman271 View Post
    A lot of "hard facts" here are in fact generalizations that are based on plumbers "inner feelings"!


    ladiesman, I did not talk about my inner feelings

    all I did was post the video from consumer reports...

    what has that got to do with inner feelings???

    you can take the information or totally ignore it ,

    I honestly dont care....http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/a...heaters-ov.htm


    but I think you are suffering from something I call

    Tankless Toxic Shock Syndrome....

    you just dont know when or how it will finally strike..


    one sympton of the problem..
    is to completely deny the possibility of troubles till it finally breaks down....

    . then come here and ask for advice on how to get it fixed..


    good luck either way...
    I hope you get by for a few years without problems.




    Tank type water heaters are very unsafe. Full of germs and other nasty tidbits.

    Since you mentioned something related to the cost of "proper" maintenance of tankless water heaters, here is a discussion about the "proper" maintenance of a tank type water heater.


    http://www.nashville.gov/water/splash/h2o_heater.htm



    Water heater maintenance

    Water heaters, whether gas or electric, have become more complex and expensive. They also do not seem to last as long as they once did. This is one modern appliance that we couldn't live without, but is "out of sight, out of mind" until we have problems with it.


    Hot water heater flushing

    Maintenance books recommend that the hot water heater be drained (flushed) every six months, but few homeowners bother to do this. Often, it is put in an area that is not as accessible as other appliances. It may or may not be easy to drain, even though all heaters have a hose connection and faucet control at the bottom. This task is not only inconvenient, but often the washer and/or washer seat on the faucet must be replaced after draining. Sometimes the entire faucet assembly will have to be replaced. If this is not done correctly, the unit may leak at the faucet. Furthermore, the unit can be damaged while drained. Unless the customer is fully familiar with servicing these units, one should consult their service representatives at the gas or electric utility before undertaking these tasks.


    Odors

    A heater which is recycled off/on or left off for a period of non-heating may develop offensive odors from sulfur bacteria. The odor is hydrogen sulfide -- "rotten egg odor." This odorous water may be drawn back through cold water faucets as well as the hot water faucet.


    Temperature settings

    The heater thermostat should be set at a reasonable temperature. Scalding of infants and the elderly can be a real hazard, even when the temperature setting is within proper limits. Again, the user should consult with their energy supplier to have the unit set at a safe temperature.


    DO NOT USE HOT WATER FROM THE TAP FOR DRINKING OR COOKING!

    Because warm/hot water is much more corrosive of metals than cold water, one should not use the hot water tap as a source for drinking, cooking or dilution of infant formula. It can be high in metals such as aluminum, iron, lead, copper and zinc. The heater tank also tends to concentrate these metals and precipitate them in layers inside the heater tank. Many tanks have a metal "sacrificial anode." This is designed to wear down and can be an additional source of metals. While it may be a convenient shortcut, water from the heater is not an approved source of drinking water.


    White plastic particles

    It is not unusual for the white plastic (PVC) filler tube inside the heater to disintegrate and discharge small white particles to the faucet aerator screens. These particles can come through not only the hot water lines but the cold water lines as well. These particles may appear to be soft and crumbly, but a good test is to heat this material with a match. PVC will melt; minerals, such as calcium, will not.

  6. #66

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    Health hazards from a tank type water heater!

    http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...?artid=2094925



    "There are two opposing risks when it comes to water temperature inside domestic water heaters; exposure to Legionella, the bacteria responsible for Legionnaires’ disease (pulmonary legionellosis), and the risk of scalding. In 1986, this dilemma was the subject of an editorial in the Canadian Medical Association Journal (1). A few months ago, Safe Kids Canada launched a media campaign aimed at preventing scalding by lowering domestic hot water temperature to 49C at the tap (2). Among the means considered to reach this objective, Safe Kids Canada, with the support of some public health organizations, suggests and seems to favour lowering the temperature setting of domestic hot water heaters to 49C."

    "Like other authors (3,4), including the World Health Organization (WHO) who published a recent monograph on the Legionella problem in drinking water (3), we believe that there is evidence for the transmission of legionellosis through the drinking water distribution systems in private homes. This is a serious illness associated with high death rates (up to 12%). Primary groups at risk (the elderly, smokers, the immunocompromised and patients suffering from chronic respiratory illnesses), are groups who include a large proportion of the population at home. Although we support prevention against tap water scalds, we are against setting water heater thermostats at 49C because we believe this could facilitate proliferation of Legionella inside the tank and increase the risk of legionellosis."




    More of the same here:

    http://customer.honeywell.com/WaterC...me/Problem.htm


    Key Facts

    According to the CDC, Legionella bacteria has a broad range of potential growth. “Legionella bacteria exist in the biofilm on the inside of pipes. Legionella grows rapidly between 77F and 108F.” Although it may seem feasible to raise the water temperature to 140F, this leaves the water in the scald temperature range.” (22)



    The International Plumbing Code Section 424.4: states, “Shower and tub/shower combination valves shall be balanced pressure, thermostatic, or a combination of balanced pressure/thermostatic valves that conform to the requirements of ASSE 1016 or CSA B125. Valves shall be equipped with a means to limit the maximum setting of the valve to 120F, which shall be field adjustable in accordance with the manufacturers’ instructions.” (22)



    “When a residential water heater is used, the codes do not limit the temperature to 140F, so it is not uncommon to find water at 160 degrees F.” This temperature will scald a child with third-degree burns in only .25 seconds. (22)



    How common is Legionella bacteria in my hot water tank?

    “In Quebec, a study of 211 homes (178 electric water heaters, 33 oil or gas water heaters) found Legionella contamination in 40% of electric water heaters. No water heaters using fossil fuels were contaminated. The authors concluded that, because of design variables, use of an electric water heater was the most significant factor leading to Legionella contamination in hot water in the home.” (28)



    What are the affects?

    Occurrences of Legionellosis have happened while people have been exposed to a infected water source and inhaled contaminated water: cooling towers, whirlpools, bathtubs, showers or even at a steamy faucet. Legionella has been shown to most greatly affect people whose immune system is low. For example in a hospital setting, patients that are most susceptible to Legionella infection include: cancer patients who are in radiation or chemotherapy treatments, organ-transplants, HIV, elderly and surgical patients. Severe Legionnaires’ disease has an overall mortality rate of 10% to 30% (1-3), and 30% to 50% of patients require admission to an intensive care unit (1-4) Additional source: Center for Disease Control and Prevention






    .
    Last edited by Ladiesman271; 02-07-2009 at 05:21 AM.

  7. #67
    Geologist sjsmithjr's Avatar
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    We too have no canard, but my wife the English teacher does like duck. The English language is a funny thing isn't it? Take the word provide. One who is fluent in plumbing codes will understand the contextural meaning while one who is not might easily misunderstand what is being said.
    -Sam Smith
    Licensed Professional Geologist - AL, TN, KY

  8. #68
    Master Plumber nhmaster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sjsmithjr View Post
    We too have no canard, but my wife the English teacher does like duck. The English language is a funny thing isn't it? Take the word provide. One who is fluent in plumbing codes will understand the contextural meaning while one who is not might easily misunderstand what is being said.

    He is apparantly better at finding obscure meanings than defending his views.

    What is so hard to understand about having to provide hot water ( 110-130 depending on your code) to every fixture at the same time? It's not "MY" code. It is the code. But like most diy hacks he refuses to obey the code and feels that "his" situation is different and therefore justifiable. No amount of cajoling (big word) or logical argument will sway him from his convictions. It's a lot like arguing with a racist skin head. WASTE OF TIME.

  9. #69

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    Ladiesman, you like I have hot water at every fixture and it is provided by our respective tankless water heaters. Therefore, we met the code of providing hot water to every fixture in the house, simultaniously to all fixtures I might add. In fact, I used hot water off my tankless this morning to powerwash an engine block I am working on for an old 944 Porsche. That was great!!!

    As a homeowner in Texas and outside any city limits, I am allowed to do this install and most any other repair or improvement to MY home without any need to pull permits. The gas company did inspect of my gas line when I changed the "T" from 1/2" to 3/4". They found a problem with THEIR line at the street at the same time and fixed it. It's good to have a scouting friend that works for Centerpoint.

    Ready to take the "ignore" advice? It really works as you don't have to listen to the nitwhits babble on....
    "Dude, we can fix that. My old man is a TV repairman, he's got the ultimate set of tools!" --Jeff Spicoli


    http://web.me.com/greg.saulsbury/ChosatongaSpeaks

  10. #70
    Extreme DIY Homeowner Scuba_Dave's Avatar
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    Another homeowner tricked into the dark side

    I had a tankless Rinaii water heater installed in a house just built. It is located about 60 feet from the farthest fixture.
    When I open a faucet or try to fill the tub it takes forever for the water to get hot.
    I am wasting gallons of water waiting.
    What can be done so that all the fixtures in the house get instant hot water?

    The house a full basement with the pipes in the ceiling exposed.
    Suggestions and advise is appreciated.
    DIY Handyman (not 4 hire)
    I have enough to do to my own house

  11. #71
    Master Plumber nhmaster's Avatar
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    Ignorance of the law is no excuse and the plumbing codes are LAW. Whether or not you believe it YOU ALWAYS NEED A PERMIT AND AN INSPECTION by the plumbing or building inspector to screw with the plumbing and water piping, and water heaters are PLUMBING. If you want me to contact your local code official and ask him I will be glad to do that for you. Again, the fact that you are more than happy to put your home, life and lives of your family at risk because you somehow think you are qualified to plumb without a license is beyond reproach. By not getting a permit and an inspection you have broken the law and are a criminal. If (god forbid) something should crop up and personal or property damage should occur due to your installation your insurance company will drop you like a hot potato, and there is a good chance you will be held liable in court. There is a damn good reason why we license plumbers in this country as well as doctors, lawyers, engineers ect. It's to keep cowboys like you from killing people. Furthermore I'll bet you a years pay there's no way in hell you can open up every hot water faucet in the house and get your 60 degree rise for any lenght of time. Bath tub 4gpm, dishwasher 2.75, shower 3, sink 2.5, water closet 3, automatic clothes washer 3.

    Add em up slick.

    Better yet, keep on spewing that "we never use all of em at the same time and it's stupid to base the code on that" line. Stupid or not, it's the code. The FACT is that in 90% of all cases a tankless water heater will not strictly meet the plumbing code requirements. That some local inspectors don't want to enforce it is thier problem and will become a huge problem for the inspector if someone brings forth a lawsuit.
    Last edited by nhmaster; 02-07-2009 at 08:42 AM.

  12. #72

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    Gregsauls,
    It's a model R53.

    I know what you mean, I think it's intimidation and insecurity. If it can't be fixed with a pipe wrench, they are lost. Any new technology, anything from the Europeans, or anything that take away their bread and butter i.e. pex, studor valves, they don't like. I was talking to the plumbers at work, and they have to use these new copper fittings that have an o-ring and are crimped instead of soldered. They told me they don't like them because it is just another lost skill for their profession.

  13. #73
    Master Plumber nhmaster's Avatar
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    Even if you take the toilet out of the picture (and I admit the error) you are still at 13 gpm. So how's that work slick?

    How you going to defend that intelligently?

    I'm waiting to read just one single, coherent, intelligent defense of the facts. Remembering that the plumbing codes are not a suggestion and they are to be strictly adhered to. I'm sure is pisses you cowboys off that there are actually laws governing who's life and property you can and can't put at jeopardy, but unfortunalty for you, that is the country we live in. Now if you want to move to Mexico or some other 3rd world nation where they don't give a crap, by all means board the next plane.

  14. #74

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    [QUOTE=Ladiesman271;183255]
    Quote Originally Posted by master plumber mark View Post





    Tank type water heaters are very unsafe. Full of germs and other nasty tidbits.

    Since you mentioned something related to the cost of "proper" maintenance of tankless water heaters, here is a discussion about the "proper" maintenance of a tank type water heater.


    http://www.nashville.gov/water/splash/h2o_heater.htm



    Water heater maintenance

    Water heaters, whether gas or electric, have become more complex and expensive. They also do not seem to last as long as they once did. This is one modern appliance that we couldn't live without, but is "out of sight, out of mind" until we have problems with it.


    Hot water heater flushing

    Maintenance books recommend that the hot water heater be drained (flushed) every six months, but few homeowners bother to do this. Often, it is put in an area that is not as accessible as other appliances. It may or may not be easy to drain, even though all heaters have a hose connection and faucet control at the bottom. This task is not only inconvenient, but often the washer and/or washer seat on the faucet must be replaced after draining. Sometimes the entire faucet assembly will have to be replaced. If this is not done correctly, the unit may leak at the faucet. Furthermore, the unit can be damaged while drained. Unless the customer is fully familiar with servicing these units, one should consult their service representatives at the gas or electric utility before undertaking these tasks.


    Odors

    A heater which is recycled off/on or left off for a period of non-heating may develop offensive odors from sulfur bacteria. The odor is hydrogen sulfide -- "rotten egg odor." This odorous water may be drawn back through cold water faucets as well as the hot water faucet.


    Temperature settings

    The heater thermostat should be set at a reasonable temperature. Scalding of infants and the elderly can be a real hazard, even when the temperature setting is within proper limits. Again, the user should consult with their energy supplier to have the unit set at a safe temperature.


    DO NOT USE HOT WATER FROM THE TAP FOR DRINKING OR COOKING!

    Because warm/hot water is much more corrosive of metals than cold water, one should not use the hot water tap as a source for drinking, cooking or dilution of infant formula. It can be high in metals such as aluminum, iron, lead, copper and zinc. The heater tank also tends to concentrate these metals and precipitate them in layers inside the heater tank. Many tanks have a metal "sacrificial anode." This is designed to wear down and can be an additional source of metals. While it may be a convenient shortcut, water from the heater is not an approved source of drinking water.


    White plastic particles

    It is not unusual for the white plastic (PVC) filler tube inside the heater to disintegrate and discharge small white particles to the faucet aerator screens. These particles can come through not only the hot water lines but the cold water lines as well. These particles may appear to be soft and crumbly, but a good test is to heat this material with a match. PVC will melt; minerals, such as calcium, will not.


    Just clean it! With Oxy-Clean! Hey I'm pointing at you!!
    Last edited by Billy Mays; 02-07-2009 at 09:36 AM.

  15. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by nhmaster View Post
    Even if you take the toilet out of the picture (and I admit the error) you are still at 13 gpm. So how's that work slick?

    How you going to defend that intelligently?

    I'm waiting to read just one single, coherent, intelligent defense of the facts. Remembering that the plumbing codes are not a suggestion and they are to be strictly adhered to. I'm sure is pisses you cowboys off that there are actually laws governing who's life and property you can and can't put at jeopardy, but unfortunalty for you, that is the country we live in. Now if you want to move to Mexico or some other 3rd world nation where they don't give a crap, by all means board the next plane.

    Just fix it! With Mighty Mend it!

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