tankless-luke warm shower

[Dunbar Plumbing]

Rugged, Rugged, Rugged. First of all, I'm more than a little disappointed that your not "getting it". You, as an experienced master plumber, have made a statement pertaining to observations which you have made in the course of executing your profession. That's not what we're looking for here in these heady days of ideology over fact.

Also, if someone includes a link to their blog in their signature, do not follow it. They really don't mean for you to read it.

...and stay out of the olive oil.

I'm blogging, in the blogosphere, so I can blog my way out of this.


Hold on,

I'm blogging right now as I type. Wait, incoming blog mail. It says I've been blogging too much.

Hi Greg,

I find you seem ta no ur stuff about them there tankless water heaters.
I means nun of these dang plumbers seem ta be able ta git the dang things ta work right an you did.
I wuz wunderin if you might be able ta help me out on my tankless project seein as ya seems ta be so smart on them.

I wanna use a tankless ta heat up my still fer makin moonshine.

These plumbers all toll me it couldn't be dun but I'm sure if anybudy could do it yawl could.

Lookin ferwards ta yur reply...

Don't pay attention ta Rugged, Redwood, and Master Plumber Mark they iz jes some mean n ornery ol plumbers that dunno Jack! I noze Jack though... My whiskey tastes bettern his...

BTW that iz a weird lookin car... Looks like some sorta furin illegal alien car...

I need wiskey too! to deal wit dam fire boxes awn deh wael.

A tank water heater will never recover it's cost. It also can not be made in a compact size nor can it be mounted on a wall. Next thing you know, the government will mandate new water heaters efficiency and tighter "green" polution control that will make tank water heaters just as complex as some of the tankless heaters are now?

Open up your next old water heater tank and show us what has built up inside the tank over the years.

I'll never buy the BS about water heaters taking up this "precious" space people make it out to be. Retarded on so many levels and I'll never agree that a 23" square in your home could be used for anything else than a damn closet. Just a sympathetic selling point, that's all.

Tell me about the pollution a water heater tank makes. And we already know what the inside of a tank looks like; it's look like a science experiment taking up all the room. But the diehards reading my statement right now will "keep pushing that heater along cause I got 32 years out of it, I even dust my heater since it has been so good to me."

Nevermind that the efficiency the thin insulation wrapping the tank. They think they've beat the numbers and they've actually got stuck. The tankless is like reinventing the wheel all over, from the old RUUD heaters that were pressure operated with the coils that were heated.

Give it 20/30 years and it will all be tankless because technology always replaces old with new, whether we agree with it or not.

[quote=master plumber mark;182823]

I think I have come to a solution though.... put rugged, redwood, and master plumber mark on your ignore list and then you don't have to see the mindless drivel, threats, abuse, or take the anti-tankless bashing.


What did I do to light the fuse to your buttox
anyway???

honestly, all I did was post a informative video from
a bunch of idiots at consumer reports and
underwriters labs...

and everyone knows that they dont know nothing
about what they are talking about....

I actually really appreciate all the input here
from more learned souls that actually have these units.....



average guys that work at consumer reports....




I really did not mean to hurt anyones feelings..


and I dont plan on beating the horse meat here anymore......

That's it, I'm putting you on my blog. Then you'll ask, "Why rugged always bloggin' about me?"

The use of pressure balanced shower valves together with a tankless water heater is not recommended by both Peerless and Delta. Symmons does not go that far, but they say there may be issues.

The bottom line seems to be that pressure balanced does not mean you end up temperature balanced. It seems that the minimum cold water flow through the valve may be too great to allow for a warm shower.

I have the old style two knob mix system, so I don't have that problem. I do know that I barely mix any cold water in with the hot when I take a shower. I will be adding a second shower in my 1/2 bath in the near future, so this could be an issue. Code requires the use of some type of an anti scald valve, and the pressure balance type seems to be a poor choice for use with a tankless water heater.


Peerless FAQ


Delta FAQ


Symmons FAQ



.

That is very destructive information to the reality of how those devices work with pressure balanced assemblies. There's no way those showering valves will ever be modified just for a tankless.

A safety issue that should never be compromised, ever.

[Redwood]

Here is what is disturbing. I, like many of you, are members of a number of other forums. For myself it runs from interest such as camping, cars, scouting, computers, and of course this DIY forum. Without any fear of generalization, this is the ONLY forum that I have seen in all my years of internet use that a few posters actually attack and belittle other NEW posters so quickly.

Only the clueless who persist in trying to spread misinformation despite being shown hard evidence to the contrary....

Greg, your only example is a tankless unit that is operating in a tankless optimum condition dream world. of course it is doing well...

Now how about the less than optimum world that the majority of the country faces?

Meanwhile I'm off to the camping forum to post about how well the Gasoline & Parafin waterproofing I applied to my canvas tent is working....

That should go over like a fart in church...

[master plumber mark]

and solutions. I am reminded of the movie "Grumpy Old Men".

Face it.... some of the "Masters" on here are not going to be swayed in the least little bit regarding the tankless issue. They will continue to attack posters, twist facts, make broad generalizations and have fun doing it at the posters expense. Ignore them and the board will be more usable.

Attention new posters. To enhance your use of this forum put master plumber mark, redwood, and rugged on your ignore list now.


gregsauls.....What did master plumber mark do to
light the fuse to your tampon, anyway????

Honestly, I am getting the feeling you are a tankless
salesman,

it appears that the only way you can justify your job or your choice of water heater is to mute out anyone who lays hard facts in front you

ok..you can put me on your ignore list of you so choose.

I really am happy that your tankless heater is working great, and I hope it lasts you 30 years so you an get
the pay back on it too...

[Redwood]

gregsauls.....What did master plumber mark do to
light the fuse to your tampon, anyway????

This painted a vivid picture in my mind!
Look out his gonna explode!

[CarlH]

gregsauls.....What did master plumber mark do to
light the fuse to your tampon, anyway????

I don't know. I don't think that you guys have been that bad. The point is that there are things that need to be considered before deciding to go with a tankless water heater. Perhaps after some time certain concerns will be lessened as more of these heaters are installed. Such as parts availability. These things are definitely more complex than a standard gas storage type heater, which leaves them with more potential points of failure. I'll still keep an eye on the tankless situation to see what happens as more of them are installed. I hope that Greg and the others stick around to let us know how things work out for the long term. I have a brother in San Diego that had a tankless installed recently and I will try to find out what model he has and keep tabs on how it is wokring out for him. All I know is that I have never been let down by regular gas storage type heater. Hot and cold running water is the only thing I can rely on during a power outage. Of course, I could always invest in a generator.

Are you still going to do your tankless experiment?

[master plumber mark]

Are you still going to do your tankless experiment?

Is that question being asked of me???

I started that thread about a year and a half ago, and
have all the information on how many therms a 75 gallon gas Bradford white uses per month...the meter is still chugging away.

since then I spent most of the summer cleaning up from the spring flood, so I have been very busy in REAL TIME, and I was sort of consumed with remodeling the bottom half or our home...

Therefore, I really have not been in any mood to fool with it...

Also, I sort of feel like I would be playing with perfection....and we have one bathroom at least 65 feet away from the heater going through a slab. and it already takes about a good 60 seconds to get hot water over there already....

If I get a Free or dented good sized tankless from one of my salesmen, , I might install it right next to our 75 gallon unit .....make my laundry room look like the consumer report labs...
that would stir up some more debates

then let the tampons fly......

[Dunbar Plumbing]

WARNING

The advice given by unlicensed DIY'rs on this thread or any thread on the internet PERTAINING to tankless water heaters is solely based on lack of experience, or limited experience given a short exposure to said product.

Their experience is limited, and when the purchase of the product was made, a crucial requirement of such product was immediately ignored and therefore DESTROYS THE MFG. WARRANTY, EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED.

THIS IMPORTANT INFORMATION WILL BE FOUND AT YOUR PLUMBING DIVISION OF THE STATE YOU ARE RESIDING IN, ALONG WITH MFG. REQUIREMENT

It clearly states that their product "Must be installed by a licensed plumbing contractor, and adhere to all local and national codes"


The installer of the RINNAI tankless by gregsauls on this forum has violated numerous plumbing codes by assuming the responsibility of installing a device that was meant to only be installed by someone who is properly and formerly trained to handle the task at hand.

THERE HAS BEEN NO MENTION OF A PLUMBING INSPECTION

THERE HAS BEEN NO MENTION OF ANY TESTING TO PROVE THERE ARE CORRECT PLUMBING REQUIREMENTS TO ACCEPT THIS DEVICE IN THIS STRUCTURE.

The facts are that no third party has without reward determined if this device was safely installed in this structure without the required and necessary permits, which is done solely to protect the inhabitants in the structure along with surrounding community.

I REPEAT,

THESE DEVICES ARE A WATER HEATING DEVICE THAT IF NOT INSTALLED CORRECTLY CAN POSE SERIOUS HEALTH RISKS, AND TO DO SO YOU HOLD YOURSELF PERSONALLY LIABLE FOR ANY DEATH, DESTRUCTION TO PERSONAL PROPERTY AND HARM TO OTHERS.


Installing plumbing devices such as tankless water heaters, tank water heaters should be done in accordance to comply with state and local codes, local authority.

ANY advice given on these such matters without such credentials is a potential risk given there's no culpability in the statements, and that the repercussions can be substantial.


This has been a public service announcement from someone that has installed plumbing more than once, and had to blog it and show it off because they are special.

That is all, and ladiesman,

Lay off the cogniac, it's cramping your ability to comprehend logic.

[brosnt1]

All,
I would like to tell you about my limited tankless heater experience. About a year ago I purchased and installed a Rinnai tankless water heater for my lake home in northern Minnesota. The installation was very easy and was complete in about a day and a half ( this was new construction not replacement) I have to admit I was nervous about the purchase, but I though it was the best option because when I get to the lake home I would have instant hot water. So far It has worked flawlessly, we can shower, run the washing machine and dishwasher with no problem. As for who is going to service the unit if it goes down, I didn't even give that a thought, I figure if I buy a quality product, I shouldn't have to worry about it for a while, or I'll have to fix it myself. The hot water does take 30, 40 seconds to get to the faucet, but so does my 105 gallon Marathon electric water heater in my home in MPLS. Also I have a couple of friend that have installed tankless heater from different manufacturers, and they all seem to like them. I guess I don't understand what all the fuss is about.
Just my 2 cents worth.

[jadnashua]

As has been mentioned, tankless installations can work. Whether they are the best choice is not necessarily the question. But, they, like anything, have their plusses and minuses. Sort of like the saying you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. They aren't magic...you need to understand not only how they work but what the ramifications are. While a broken washing machine may be an annoyance, a downed WH is a major pain. Know what you are getting yourself into, and your expectations and the system's capabilities, and make your decision. Many people make the wrong decision for the wrong reasons.

[nhmaster]

All,
I would like to tell you about my limited tankless heater experience. About a year ago I purchased and installed a Rinnai tankless water heater for my lake home in northern Minnesota. The installation was very easy and was complete in about a day and a half ( this was new construction not replacement) I have to admit I was nervous about the purchase, but I though it was the best option because when I get to the lake home I would have instant hot water. So far It has worked flawlessly, we can shower, run the washing machine and dishwasher with no problem. As for who is going to service the unit if it goes down, I didn't even give that a thought, I figure if I buy a quality product, I shouldn't have to worry about it for a while, or I'll have to fix it myself. The hot water does take 30, 40 seconds to get to the faucet, but so does my 105 gallon Marathon electric water heater in my home in MPLS. Also I have a couple of friend that have installed tankless heater from different manufacturers, and they all seem to like them. I guess I don't understand what all the fuss is about.
Just my 2 cents worth.

All on at the same time?

[sjsmithjr]

As for who is going to service the unit if it goes down, I didn't even give that a thought, I figure if I buy a quality product, I shouldn't have to worry about it for a while, or I'll have to fix it myself.

I'll try that on my wife next time I'm TDY and "a quality product" with no one to fix it breaks. Wait, I'm smarter than that...

I just want one DIY'er to chime in that meets all of the following criteria: 1) didn't get his/her tank/tankless at a steeply discounted price via "good buddy", bankruptcy, or online sale, 2) pulled all required permits and successfully completed the inspection process, 3) met all manufacturers conditions for full and unconditional warranty, 4) installed all components and related components in accordance with manufacturers recommendations, and 5) is not available 24/7 to fix the thing if it breaks.

If you can do that, then you've got some metrics with validity.

Guys, I DIY too but geez.

[master plumber mark]

[quote=Ladiesman271;183064]A lot of "hard facts" here are in fact generalizations that are based on plumbers "inner feelings"!


ladiesman, I did not talk about my inner feelings

all I did was post the video from consumer reports...

what has that got to do with inner feelings???

you can take the information or totally ignore it ,

I honestly dont care....http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/a...heaters-ov.htm


but I think you are suffering from something I call

Tankless Toxic Shock Syndrome....

you just dont know when or how it will finally strike..


one sympton of the problem..
is to completely deny the possibility of troubles till it finally breaks down....

. then come here and ask for advice on how to get it fixed..


good luck either way...
I hope you get by for a few years without problems.

[Scuba_Dave]

Well I guess after reading this thread I will never buy a tankless
I also checked our incoming water temp - after freezing my hands off in the basement washing out a paint brush

With negative & single temps its hovering around the freezing point
That's about a 90 degree rise I'd need, & probably another 200a service for tankless

[nhmaster]

Heck, even I can do that. A modern dishwasher does not use much water not does it fill at a high GPM rate. I never use hot or warm water for the wash, so the only potential issue would be the flow capacity of the main cold water feed to the house.

Besides, I don't know anyone who ever runs every hot water appliance at the same time. That argument is just a canard!

That post is proof of your ignorance on the subject. So do a bit of research before opening your flap.

READ THE DAMN CODE. You MUST provide hot water to every single fixture in the home. You can not pick and choose who will and who will not get hot water. That's why we have codes that you all seem to want to ignore. If you add up the SFU of the three fixtures they are over the maximum flow rate of the heater. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this stuff out along with delta T curves. Sure, hardly anyone ever runs both showers and the washing machine and the kitchen sink all at the same time. But if they want to they should be able to. And guess what? They can with a regular water heater and they most certainly CAN NOT with a tankless. Get over it. You made a bad decision. You are'nt saving squat. You can whine till the day you die but you ain't fooling anyone but yourself.

[nhmaster]

Now you have resorted to simply complaining about DIY water heater installations. So all of this complaining is just about money taken away from a plumbers revenue stream?

I am going to have to give your stock a downgrade to a SELL recommendation!

The fact that every single piece of information in Rugged's post is factual and correct means nothing to you? Only your massive ego and the desire to proove something? Why not have your wife and kids read through these threads and see how they feel about you putting their safety at risk? Or did you just slide that one on by them, depending on their faith in your self imposed abilities. You guys absolutly floor me with your arrogance and ignorance.

Get over yourself. We don't give a damn about your money. Take a second and Google the plumbers motto. That's what we care about. That's why we do what we do.

Now I am going to take Redwood's advice and put both of you on my ignore list because I am through with your childish nonsense. Go peddle your ignorance to folks that don't know any better.