tankless-luke warm shower

[CarlH]

I think the OP got the most likely answer to their problem, which is the combination of a flow restrictor on the tankless and pressure balance valve are the cause of the luke warm shower. Also, Delta recognizes this potential problem. Note that Delta used the word "Often" and not "Always". And I would have thought that a pressure balanced valve would have helped out the situation. I guess I learned something new today.


Greg,
It is situations like these where a tankless heater gets a bad rap. Whose fault is it in this case? Does it matter? What is the OP going to do to resolve the problem? Get a tankless with a higher capacity/flow? Change the shower valve? Either way it may be an additional expenditure that was not expected.

Also, note that there are different makes of Tankless heaters on the market and they vary in their performance and reliability. Sounds like the Rinnai that you have is a decent unit and seems to be working out well for you. I'd be curious to hear how that unit works out for you in the long term, good or bad. Now that you've had it for a few months, have you noticed much of a change in your gas consumption? Does the gas consumption begin to rise before a routine cleaning?

[Redwood]

Your refusal to read and comprehend my posts are very tiring. But I will push again for it seems to be my destiny here. READ MY ENTIRE POST DANG IT ! Geez!

I did NOT say the entire country or even part of it could not benefit from tankless water heaters. YOU injected your interpretation of MY words to read "Indiana" in the mix! Fact

My full message also includes the fact that a proper sized unit is important, if not critical, to the proper function of an overall tankless SYSTEM !

Buy too small a tankless unit (read undersized), hot water restriction will occur at the tankless end as hot water needs exceed unit capability and WILL result in LOW pressure (throttled by tankless) at a Delta anti-scald valve. Delta is doing a CYA right now in my opinion.

Rugged said it in post #2... "Sounds like an undersized unit."

Keep twisting my words and I can keep resting my point.

No Greg, I'm just saying in your replies to other posters that are telling of their experience in their area with tankless and comparing it with your experience brings little to the table.

As for Delta doing a CYA... the problem is not theirs...
Cutting back flow rates to maintain temperature is the nature of the beast with tankless and they are stating they are not responsible fir ineffiecencies of a water heating system...

[gregsauls]

I think the OP got the most likely answer to their problem, which is the combination of a flow restrictor on the tankless and pressure balance valve are the cause of the luke warm shower. Also, Delta recognizes this potential problem. Note that Delta used the word "Often" and not "Always". And I would have thought that a pressure balanced valve would have helped out the situation. I guess I learned something new today.


Greg,
It is situations like these where a tankless heater gets a bad rap. Whose fault is it in this case? Does it matter? What is the OP going to do to resolve the problem? Get a tankless with a higher capacity/flow? Change the shower valve? Either way it may be an additional expenditure that was not expected.

Also, note that there are different makes of Tankless heaters on the market and they vary in their performance and reliability. Sounds like the Rinnai that you have is a decent unit and seems to be working out well for you. I'd be curious to hear how that unit works out for you in the long term, good or bad. Now that you've had it for a few months, have you noticed much of a change in your gas consumption? Does the gas consumption begin to rise before a routine cleaning?

I agree that the bad rap may be a needless case of chasing rabbits and red herrings. I think that manufacturers may be overstating some of the spec. This in turn could lead to undersizing issues. That "global warming" thing we are seeing now isn't helping

Our 1 year anniversary with our Rinnai will be in August. I will be doing a 30 minute descaling and filter clean at that time. I did look at the filter last November out of curiosity and it was clean. I do believe also in "you get what you pay for" in that the Rinnai represents one of the top 3 or so of quality tankless manufacturers. No, I am not on their payroll either

Being a long time (20+ years) Mac owner and authorized service provider... I don't advocate what sjsmithjr talked about! I charge extra, read triple, when I work on junked up system like that.

[sjsmithjr]

Hmmm, your words not mine.

Well, actually, the part a guy with over 20 years experience in his field, a guy with extensive experience and the ability to troubleshoot multiple systems is from your business' website. That's you in your field.

A lot of the plumbers dispensing advice here have the same or better qualifications in their fields. They're not troglodytes nor are they basing thier opinion on one install; you know, the guy who got a lot of parts at a good price and got it to work for him under one set of conditions.

I am happy to hear your's is working well for you. Now if it were to experience a catastrophic failure of a critical component, how long would it take to get the part? Around here it would be "days" even with an expedited order.

[gregsauls]

I am happy to hear your's is working well for you. Now if it were to experience a catastrophic failure of a critical component, how long would it take to get the part? Around here it would be "days" even with an expedited order.

Will deal with downtime, if and when it happens. I hear Fedex has this thing called overnight shipping. May try it down here in the backwoods of Texas.

More FUD

[Redwood]

Will deal with downtime, if and when it happens. I hear Fedex has this thing called overnight shipping. May try it down here in the backwoods of Texas.

More FUD

I'll have to try that sometime with Kohler...
Thanks for the tip on FEDX....

[sjsmithjr]

Can a plumber fix a DVD player? Plumbers and electronics (AKA tankless water heater) do not mix very well!

More FUD. I thought you olive branch guys weren't into that. Besides, who fixes a DVD player these days and what's the turnaround time? My buddy that does that for a living tells me about 10 working days. If you think plumbers and electronics repair don't mix then please tell me how Joe Average and electronics mix? How many homeowners fix their own DVD players?

As for FEDEX...

DAY 1 - No hot water, what's the problem? Call the plumber, not the TV repair man.
DAY 2 - Supply house calls vendor, orders part.
DAY 3 - Vendor processes order.
DAY 4 - Part shipped.
DAY 5 - Part arrives; after all the repair calls have been scheduled and left for the day.
DAY 6 - Oops! That's Saturday. Time and half for Joe Average to get hot water restored on Day 6.

Of course, I could have hitched up the horse and rode into town and picked up the parts to fix my conventional hot water heater the same day.

[jadnashua]

Nptice that the OP made one posting and never came back!

I'm here, reading your comments, and, my original post was to provide some basis for evaluating a tankless' operation. If you notice, I've got over 9000 posts...and am a moderator.

I was trying to explain that yes, you can use a tankless, and yes, they can work fine for your application, but, they have limitations, as does any solution. You need to understand what they can do, and their quirks. If you plan large volume simultaneous uses, you better have a huge gas line and a major flue for what may be multiple units ganged together. You can only get a certain amount of temperature gain as the water flows by. Most people don't have a feel for how big a unit you need to match your needs. By using the numbers I provided, you can see if the specs for the unit you are thinking about actually is blowing smoke, or has a basis in sound facts. If the spec sheet lists a 70-degree rise, but you don't need that because you live in Hawaii and your incoming water never gets lower than 60-degrees, you need someone to help you understand what you can actually get out of the thing...same thing if you live in Nome, Alaska, and it averages just over freezing most of the year.

Some people never use a tub and don't need to worry about trying to fill it in the middle of the winter. Some people regularly have 2-3 people taking a shower at the same time getting ready for work or school. Some people like a shower with 3-4 body sprays and a rain-shower head running, while doing the laundry and the dishes. So, the quantity of hot water reliably available can vary radically. If you are going to use any technology, you need to understand the properties to make the best choice. For me, since I have a very efficient modulating, condensing boiler, I've got an indirect. I've lived with tankless systems over the years, and yes, they are better now than they were.

If you make an intelligent, realistic assessment of your hot water use and the local water conditions (temp and hardness), you can then determine how big a unit you need.

The low-flow turn on point and flow restriction were significant turn-offs to me in practical use over the years. You may never experience that, but you should at least become aware of it rather than glossing over it in the specs and not understand the ramifications.

Most people don't have experience with this technology. It's not like going down to the car dealer and doing a test drive; typically, once you shell out your money, you own it, whether it works well or not when it comes to installing a tankless system. You can make some expensive mistakes. What I hoped to do with this thread was to provide some guidance on the pros and cons...sniping at responders does no good, and is kind of childish.

[CarlH]

How many tankless water heaters control water temperature by cutting back flow rates? My particular water heater has a fixed rate flow restrictor of 3 1/4 gpm. That is greater than than the government mandated flow capacity of current model showerheads!

But can you run two showers simultaneously? Or a shower and something else?

Oh wait, you can do two showers at the same time. All you need is the right shower heads. Here's what you need:
http://www.speakmancompany.com/produ...ail/S-2253-E15
or
http://www.waterpikecoflow.com/VBE-423/
or
http://www.deltafaucet.com/bath/details/75155.html

Do you have a small household or do you limit it to one shower at a time?

It is not uncommon for me to have two showers going at a time, but I'm on tank type.

[Redwood]

How many tankless water heaters control water temperature by cutting back flow rates? My particular water heater has a fixed rate flow restrictor of 3 1/4 gpm. That is greater than than the government mandated flow capacity of current model showerheads!

Quite a few actually.

[Redwood]

Can a plumber fix a DVD player? Plumbers and electronics (AKA tankless water heater) do not mix very well!

You might be surprised as to the electronic qualifications some of us have...
We just like the money we make in plumbing....

[Redwood]

Uh, Mod, I think you got the threads confused. This thread was a legit question by a new post on the forums. A the thread quickly denigrated to tankless bashing. I hope a few of us here can reverse this trend and offer some practical advice without quickly resorting to... BURN HER.

Your comments above and in another tankless thread are on target with regard to learning about the proper ownership of the technology in your home. I agree that EVERY technology out there has pro's and con's. Some can handle technology change and some can't.

BTW, called Apple today in need of a replacement battery for my notebook. Will be here tomorrow morn by 11:30am. That's service powered by Fedex!

And on the last note... THEY STARTED IT

YMMV when it comes to getting tankless parts...

[SewerRatz]

Can a plumber fix a DVD player? Plumbers and electronics (AKA tankless water heater) do not mix very well!

I can fix DVD players, computers, military radios. Heck I even can design electronic circuits and program computers.

Long long ago, back when there was a gaming system called the Oddessy II (shortly after pong) It came with a cartridge that let you write simple hex decimal code. Ever since I was hooked. I self taught myself basic electronics and a few programing languages. I then went into the Army as 29E which is Field radio repair, I aced the class. When I got home the electronics market was flooded with everyone wanting to be in it as well as computer programing and such. Everywhere I went for a job I was told Military training does not count I need to have a degree in electronics. I did eventually get a job in a shop designing test fixtures for an electronics shop to pretest and final test all the circuit boards they designed. Sadly I only got $6 bucks an hour. When my daughter was about to be born they only gave me a 25 cent raise, so I called my old man and told him I am coming to work for him in plumbing, and here I am.

Sorry about the tangent, but as Redwood said you will be surprised what us plumbers can do.

[Dunbar Plumbing]

Since we are in the land of make-believe,


I get about 5-10 calls a year on tankless heaters that are in FAIL mode, meaning not working and the wife is considering divorce sooner than later. That's right you married men; odds are at 75% you're not ending your life with your mate, buy a tankless to shorten that time span. A true "leurve-tester" of sorts. LMFAO!!!


It's always the same, and they mentioned they've called every plumber in the book and they are more than frustrated at this point because the initial installer says, "We install them, we don't service them" and away he goes not answering the phone, ever again because he made his dime, why should he sit there for HOURS looking up PDF files and troubleshooting regs and error codes KNOWING the customer is going to expect this time for free, given the fact the consumer now thinks you built this device in your basement with a ball peen hammer and some wires, some copper tubing and a couple screws.

It's worth the loss of a customer at this point because they are now in the "I regret this buying decision" mode because not everyone can afford top of the line tankless heaters, and not everyone can install them themselves.

So, the person on the other end is heated, upset that he's been without hot water for days, not hours and the parts that were sent to him, weren't the right ones, or they didn't fix the problem.

Is this my fault? Are you going to hustle me down because you didn't check out what swayed you to begin with? Anytime I hear "bosch" and "tankless" in the same sentence, I start busting out laughing knowing you got stupid stamped on yo fo-head.

Ain't nuttin' I'm going to deal with, phone call is ending in 3, 2, 1.....click!



Has anyone with a brain figured out WHY the supply houses don't carry repair parts? You think they are going to let you pull parts off the display model? Oh wait, there's a G instead of a P in the serial number...won't work.

"Did you call the friendly tech support M-F 9-6 and WHAT!?!?!?! No weekends?!!?!?! Call back monday?!?!?!

Better call a plumber, maybe he knows someone who "has one of these laying around I can get a part off of."

Fat chance slim shady; you got a better chance rolling doobies for charity than thinking the world is going to stop for one second and fix your box of wonders hanging on the wall.


Like I said, it's make-believe...

[Dunbar Plumbing]

Greg, by no means, don't let me steal your thunder big guy,





I'm thinking how inefficent this heater was running for 12 years while you never even thought once about maintenance,

and can imagine that was like a car with two fouled plugs AND a hole in the gas tank, at the same time.

What you wasted in efficiency will never be recouped with your tankless. Most won't let plumbing go in disrepair to the extent your available pictures are showing.

The great thing is...tankless is going to make you a responsible user of plumbing/mechanical systems because you'll never get a tankless to operate like a german tank of a tank water heater performed, period.

I'd buy a BMW too just to polish the idea I'm on a new path to efficiency.


Psst, it's mid-life crisis dude no matter what