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Thread: tankless-luke warm shower

  1. #151

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scuba_Dave View Post
    You CAN"T supply 2 showers since according to your own posts
    your tankwortless will only supply 2.09gpm flow rate

    So you have already posted that your tankworthless will NOT supply more then 1 shower at a time


    Find a single post made by me where I stated that I could do that!

    I never said that I could do that. The "boys" along with yourself keep telling me I can not run two showers at the same time. That was always obvious to me. I only have one full bathroom, and two 1/2 baths. Maybe you, the "boys" and the Hillbilly man take showers simultaneously outside the house, but we do not do that around here.

    Read post 191 again.

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ladiesman271 View Post

    Getting back to the basic question, the code limit for shower heads in this state is 2.5 GPM. If you use multiple shower heads in one shower stall, the total flow of all the shower heads added together can not exceed 2.5 gpm.
    If you have more than one shower valve, each valve is allowed per the code to deliver 2.5 gpm to its total connected head. So if you have two shower valves that means that shower can have a total of 5 gpm. Lots of homes around here in their master bath have this arrangement, I have seen up to 4 mixing valves in one shower so if they turn on the overhead rain shower, body sprays set one and set 2 and the handheld shower, you are looking at 10 gpm.

  3. #153

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    Quote Originally Posted by SewerRatz View Post

    They are not saying they do not want to sell them. They are saying it is a costly install, and in most cases you will need to install more than one unit to handle the demand that most homes have. Which has been my point since day one. Yes some people can get by on a single unit install. I could get by on it in my mother's home if I install the largest unit out there. Thing is my mother's home is a 2 bath that was built in the early 50's but its only my mom and dad living their so they never run both showers at the same time and nor do they run the wash or dishwasher while someone is taking a shower.

    Yup, my parents have a mid 60's vintage 5 bedroom colonial with 2 full baths and 2 1/2 baths. The hot water has a 1/2" line that is fed from the tankless coil in the FHW heating boiler. We had two adults and 7 children of various ages, and there was never a hot water shortage even with that tankless setup.

    Then again, we did not take two showers at the same time either. One after the other in two different rooms. By the time someone finished in one shower, there was the time lag of drying off, drying the hair, getting dressed and whatever. That's when the second shower was used. I am not sure if a typical sized single tank type heater could keep up with a lot of back to back showers either.

    Also do that many people run washing machines with the full hot wash and rinse cycle at any time during the day, let alone while someone is in the shower? Sounds like good grounds for a divorce to me!




    Quote Originally Posted by SewerRatz View Post

    The newer homes in the Chicago suburbs are at least 3 or more baths, and they do take showers all at the same time and they do do laundry during showers. These larger homes also have 75 gallon high recovery tanks or some even have two 50 gallon high recovery tanks. These people would most definitely need to run two units to be able to handle their peak demand load.

    So you see no difference between a normal sized home and a McMansion?





    Quote Originally Posted by SewerRatz View Post

    The others that insisted from all their "research" that a single unit will handle their needs I still installed it for them with a disclaimer that I had informed them of a properly designed system. Sure enough after a week I get a call telling me that they are only getting tempered water. I just tell them to read my disclaimer, and if they want me to come and install it the way I recommended to them in the first place I be more than happy to. Other than that I can not help them any further.


    Tepid water where? Out of the tankless, or out of the shower head? Gas unit or electric? Public water with adequate water pressure, or well water? Current low flow shower heads, or high flow units? Pressure balanced shower valve or temperature controlled? Was this a McMansion?

    I assume that you did more than just install a tankless unit without evaluating the full "system".

  4. #154
    Illinois Licensed Plumber SewerRatz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ladiesman271 View Post
    Also do that many people run washing machines with the full hot wash and rinse cycle at any time during the day, let alone while someone is in the shower? Sounds like good grounds for a divorce to me!
    My mom still uses pure hot rinse cycle, but like I said her old plumbing she doesn't do it while someone is in the shower. My father likes to take super hot baths, after he fills the tub, then my mother starts the wash and her tanked unit recovered quick enough to supply the hot water to the washer.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ladiesman271 View Post
    So you see no difference between a normal sized home and a McMansion?
    Here a McMansion is 7 bedrooms 5 baths. Normal homes are 4 to 5 bedrooms up to 4 baths.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ladiesman271 View Post
    Tepid water where? Out of the tankless, or out of the shower head? Gas unit or electric? Public water with adequate water pressure, or well water? Current low flow shower heads, or high flow units? Pressure balanced shower valve or temperature controlled? Was this a McMansion?

    I assume that you did more than just install a tankless unit without evaluating the full "system".
    I always evaluate the system and make the proper recommendations, but the final decision lays with the home owner. These where all Gas units with city water 60 to 70 psi 1 to 1 1/2" water service, standard flow shower heads at 2.0 gpm. The valves are pressure and temperature controlled., Reason these people got tempered water was they where exceeding the demand of the single unit. They tried to have 3 showers go at once.

  5. #155

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    Quote Originally Posted by SewerRatz View Post
    If you have more than one shower valve, each valve is allowed per the code to deliver 2.5 gpm to its total connected head. So if you have two shower valves that means that shower can have a total of 5 gpm. Lots of homes around here in their master bath have this arrangement, I have seen up to 4 mixing valves in one shower so if they turn on the overhead rain shower, body sprays set one and set 2 and the handheld shower, you are looking at 10 gpm.


    Whoops, my bad!

    McMansions again. I don't understand the attraction to those large and fancy bathrooms.

  6. #156

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    Quote Originally Posted by SewerRatz View Post

    My mom still uses pure hot rinse cycle, but like I said her old plumbing she doesn't do it while someone is in the shower. My father likes to take super hot baths, after he fills the tub, then my mother starts the wash and her tanked unit recovered quick enough to supply the hot water to the washer.

    I think that you meant to say that the clothing in the wash never complained that the rinse was only "tepid"?




    Quote Originally Posted by SewerRatz View Post


    I always evaluate the system and make the proper recommendations, but the final decision lays with the home owner. These where all Gas units with city water 60 to 70 psi 1 to 1 1/2" water service, standard flow shower heads at 2.0 gpm. The valves are pressure and temperature controlled., Reason these people got tempered water was they where exceeding the demand of the single unit. They tried to have 3 showers go at once.

    Two showers is the limit that I have seen on the larger units with winter water temperatures coming in. Note that I would probably still have a tank type water heater if I did not need the floor space for other use. Still, I think the gas tankless is a better performer than the old tank heater was.

    Like Clint Eastwood said " A man's got to know his water heaters limitations. Did I use 2 gallons of hot water per minute, or 4 gallons per minute"!

  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scuba_Dave View Post
    You CAN"T supply 2 showers since according to your own posts
    your tankwortless will only supply 2.09gpm flow rate

    So you have already posted that your tankworthless will NOT supply more then 1 shower at a time
    Me thinkest the Laddy Boy is tilting the meter hard over...



    The inaccurate statements just ooze out of his mouth like when a bull lifts it's tail and every reply calling him on it just gets ignored as another piece of fertilizer takes it's place for us to reply to...

    Laddy Boy is a legend in his own mind when it comes to tankless knowledge..

  8. #158
    Master Plumber Redwood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ladiesman271 View Post
    Getting back to the basic question, the code limit for shower heads in this state is 2.5 GPM. If you use multiple shower heads in one shower stall, the total flow of all the shower heads added together can not exceed 2.5 gpm.
    Wrong Again Buckoo!
    The 2.5 is a per head limit!

  9. #159
    Master Plumber Redwood's Avatar
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    Again Laddy Boy I direct your attention to this post requiring an answer...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ladiesman271 View Post
    Another prevarication!

    Simply put, my gas tankless water heater is specified to provide 2.09 GPM with a 90 degree temperature rise.

    The coldest my incoming water has been is 40 degrees F.

    The highest temperature of hot water allowed by the Massachusetts Plumbing code is 130 degrees F.

    40 degrees incoming water temperature plus a 90 degree F temperature rise equals 130 degrees F.

    The above meets the volume of hot water required for the intended use based on the lowest yearly incoming water temperatures provided to this residence (AKA winter season low).
    Laddyman,
    Are you a licensed plumber in the state of Mass?
    Was your installation performed by you in the state of mass?

  10. #160
    Master Plumber Redwood's Avatar
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    And your reply to this?
    Quote Originally Posted by Laddyman271 View Post
    Tank type water heaters are very unsafe. Full of germs and other nasty tidbits.

    Since you mentioned something related to the cost of "proper" maintenance of tankless water heaters, here is a discussion about the "proper" maintenance of a tank type water heater.

    http://www.nashville.gov/water/splash/h2o_heater.htm

    Water heater maintenance

    Water heaters, whether gas or electric, have become more complex and expensive. They also do not seem to last as long as they once did. This is one modern appliance that we couldn't live without, but is "out of sight, out of mind" until we have problems with it.

    Hot water heater flushing

    Maintenance books recommend that the hot water heater be drained (flushed) every six months, but few homeowners bother to do this. Often, it is put in an area that is not as accessible as other appliances. It may or may not be easy to drain, even though all heaters have a hose connection and faucet control at the bottom. This task is not only inconvenient, but often the washer and/or washer seat on the faucet must be replaced after draining. Sometimes the entire faucet assembly will have to be replaced. If this is not done correctly, the unit may leak at the faucet. Furthermore, the unit can be damaged while drained. Unless the customer is fully familiar with servicing these units, one should consult their service representatives at the gas or electric utility before undertaking these tasks.

    Odors

    A heater which is recycled off/on or left off for a period of non-heating may develop offensive odors from sulfur bacteria. The odor is hydrogen sulfide -- "rotten egg odor." This odorous water may be drawn back through cold water faucets as well as the hot water faucet.

    Temperature settings

    The heater thermostat should be set at a reasonable temperature. Scalding of infants and the elderly can be a real hazard, even when the temperature setting is within proper limits. Again, the user should consult with their energy supplier to have the unit set at a safe temperature.

    DO NOT USE HOT WATER FROM THE TAP FOR DRINKING OR COOKING!

    Because warm/hot water is much more corrosive of metals than cold water, one should not use the hot water tap as a source for drinking, cooking or dilution of infant formula. It can be high in metals such as aluminum, iron, lead, copper and zinc. The heater tank also tends to concentrate these metals and precipitate them in layers inside the heater tank. Many tanks have a metal "sacrificial anode." This is designed to wear down and can be an additional source of metals. While it may be a convenient shortcut, water from the heater is not an approved source of drinking water.

    White plastic particles

    It is not unusual for the white plastic (PVC) filler tube inside the heater to disintegrate and discharge small white particles to the faucet aerator screens. These particles can come through not only the hot water lines but the cold water lines as well. These particles may appear to be soft and crumbly, but a good test is to heat this material with a match. PVC will melt; minerals, such as calcium, will not.
    Laddy Man,

    You really reached deep up beyond your spincter muscle to pull out this batch of brilliance...

    Flushing is required on tankless as well as tank type water heaters...

    The odors you mention are caused by sulfur reducing bacteria. The locations these bacteria can set up shop is not limited to tank type water heaters. Wells and even faucets may have a odorous bacteria colony set up a home.

    Water that has been heated has had its mineral content precipitated out of it and like RO water is hungry in terms of aggressiveness. It will even leach lead out of pre lead free solder joints... Your tankless is included in this aggresiveness. BTW RO water is a highly desired drinking water...

    White plastic particles?? Put down the crack pipe Laddy! Snap out of it! For several years in the 90's water heaters by many manufacturers were made with a defective dip tub installed in them. All persons who had water heaters with this problem were notified as required by law of a class action lawsuit and last date for filing claims for relief under the settlement agreement was December 31, 2000.

  11. #161
    Master Plumber Redwood's Avatar
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    And you reply to this?
    Quote Originally Posted by Laddyman271 View Post
    Health hazards from a tank type water heater!

    http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...?artid=2094925

    "There are two opposing risks when it comes to water temperature inside domestic water heaters; exposure to Legionella, the bacteria responsible for Legionnaires’ disease (pulmonary legionellosis), and the risk of scalding. In 1986, this dilemma was the subject of an editorial in the Canadian Medical Association Journal (1). A few months ago, Safe Kids Canada launched a media campaign aimed at preventing scalding by lowering domestic hot water temperature to 49°C at the tap (2). Among the means considered to reach this objective, Safe Kids Canada, with the support of some public health organizations, suggests and seems to favour lowering the temperature setting of domestic hot water heaters to 49°C."

    "Like other authors (3,4), including the World Health Organization (WHO) who published a recent monograph on the Legionella problem in drinking water (3), we believe that there is evidence for the transmission of legionellosis through the drinking water distribution systems in private homes. This is a serious illness associated with high death rates (up to 12%). Primary groups at risk (the elderly, smokers, the immunocompromised and patients suffering from chronic respiratory illnesses), are groups who include a large proportion of the population at home. Although we support prevention against tap water scalds, we are against setting water heater thermostats at 49°C because we believe this could facilitate proliferation of Legionella inside the tank and increase the risk of legionellosis."

    More of the same here:

    http://customer.honeywell.com/WaterC...me/Problem.htm

    Key Facts

    According to the CDC, Legionella bacteria has a broad range of potential growth. “Legionella bacteria exist in the biofilm on the inside of pipes. Legionella grows rapidly between 77°F and 108°F.” Although it may seem feasible to raise the water temperature to 140°F, this leaves the water in the scald temperature range.” (22)

    The International Plumbing Code Section 424.4: states, “Shower and tub/shower combination valves shall be balanced pressure, thermostatic, or a combination of balanced pressure/thermostatic valves that conform to the requirements of ASSE 1016 or CSA B125. Valves shall be equipped with a means to limit the maximum setting of the valve to 120°F, which shall be field adjustable in accordance with the manufacturers’ instructions.” (22)

    “When a residential water heater is used, the codes do not limit the temperature to 140F, so it is not uncommon to find water at 160 degrees F.” This temperature will scald a child with third-degree burns in only .25 seconds. (22)

    How common is Legionella bacteria in my hot water tank?

    “In Quebec, a study of 211 homes (178 electric water heaters, 33 oil or gas water heaters) found Legionella contamination in 40% of electric water heaters. No water heaters using fossil fuels were contaminated. The authors concluded that, because of design variables, use of an electric water heater was the most significant factor leading to Legionella contamination in hot water in the home.” (28)

    What are the affects?

    Occurrences of Legionellosis have happened while people have been exposed to a infected water source and inhaled contaminated water: cooling towers, whirlpools, bathtubs, showers or even at a steamy faucet. Legionella has been shown to most greatly affect people whose immune system is low. For example in a hospital setting, patients that are most susceptible to Legionella infection include: cancer patients who are in radiation or chemotherapy treatments, organ-transplants, HIV, elderly and surgical patients. Severe Legionnaires’ disease has an overall mortality rate of 10% to 30% (1-3), and 30% to 50% of patients require admission to an intensive care unit (1-4) Additional source: Center for Disease Control and Prevention.
    Now you have really outdone yourself in your twisting of facts and information resources. Your post is so full of incoherant ramblings of quoted misapplied information that a person reasonably educated could hardly understand it.

    I propose that we bestow the title of "Google Boy" upon you.

    This is a title that we give to those with a total lack of subject knowledge that manage to post "copy & paste" a long post that looks very knowledgable on the surface until a knowledgable person attempts to read the assembled drivel.


    Simply put Legionella Bacteria is present in water. Usually in small quantities that have a miniscule chance of causing a problem. When water is stored at a temperature in the ideal growth range the small amount present can multiply.

    The use of a tankless water heater will not do anything to the bacteria to kill it and infact if there is a recirculation system may keep it in the ideal growth range just like a tank type water heater.

    The solution is simple for a tank type water heater and that is to raise the temperature in the tank to 140 degrees where the Legionella Bacteria will be killed then youe a tempering valve on the outlet to lower the temperature to 120 degrees for safe use.

    There it is a few simple paragraphs that said more than all the drivel you posted...
    Could it be that I know my subject matter and am qualified to post about it?

  12. #162

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    Quote Originally Posted by SewerRatz View Post

    One thing I pride myself on is doing things to code.

    From what I can tell, it is clear that you do take pride in doing things to code!

  13. #163
    Illinois Licensed Plumber SewerRatz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ladiesman271 View Post
    Now back to "the code". Our friend Mr. Rat (a professional plumber who takes pride in following the code) installed a tankless sytem in a home that had three full bathrooms. He knew that a single tankless system would not supply "hot water" to all three showers when they were run simultaneously. He made the customer sign a disclaimer for that job. Obviously, the installation was permitted and inspected. Obviously, Mr. Rat knew that while the installation met code, it would not provide "hot water" to all fixtures at the same time.


    So now the plumbing instructor should answer some serious questions.

    Was Mr. Rat considered to be a hack?

    Was Mr. Rat following "the code"?

    Was the local plumbing inspector incompetent (or worse)?

    If Mr. Rat has violated "the code", his customer signed disclaimer will not hold up in court since the agreement violates state law.


    Just wondering if your interpretation of "the code" is a valid one. Maybe you should try to have Mr. Rat's plumbing license pulled for not "following the code"!
    Sad part about Tankless heaters is the code does not address properly sizing the heater as of yet. Having them singing the disclaimer that I had informed them the system the want installed is not the one they where advised by me to install. It has help up in court as part of the contract, and some of the people did have me come in and install the system as advised. Others changed their usage habits as well as installed flow restrictors everywhere. 1 gpm shower heads .5 gpm aerators and so on. Just so the single unit can handle their demand. Once the code address this issue then I can tell the customer sorry I can not install this the way you want it installed.

    Now for restaurants that go tankless do a hybrid set up there. We have two units one direct feeding the bathrooms each with a .5 gpm aerator. The second tank is tied into a 180 Gallon storage tank with recirculating pump and a thermostat on the tank maintaining the water to the required 160 degree water if they use a chemical sanitizer, or to 180 degrees if they just use a hot water rinse on their dishwasher. Granted the second set up is a tankless boiler running at 400,000 BTU but can handle the large demand of the restaurant.

  14. #164
    Master Plumber Redwood's Avatar
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    Laddy Boy's Credibility?
    Answer the Questions!
    Last edited by Redwood; 02-12-2009 at 06:19 AM.

  15. #165

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    Quote Originally Posted by sedin26 View Post
    Ladiesman,

    I'm not against tankless heaters (I may go tankless myself next time due to severe space restrictions) but I do have a question on your numbers.

    You mentioned that your system is rated at 2.09 GPM output at, I believe, 75 degree temp rise and you have also stated that you can run multiple showers at the same time.

    That doesn't seem to add up and I'm wondering how you achieve this? Given that a low flow showerhead is rated at a higher GPM that the unit, how can you run two at once?

    The only thing I can think of is that each shower uses some cold and some hot so you might be able to squeak by with two running but it still doesn't seem quite right, particularly for those who might like hot showers.

    Also, how do you find it works when you have someone in the shower and a sink calls for hot water on full? (filling sink to do dishes, for example) Is it able to keep up?


    As a follow up to that question, I measured everything with that scenario.

    1. Typical water temperature that I prefer was measured at 105 degrees. No surprise there.

    2. Incoming water temperature is around 42 degrees (winter low).

    3. Incoming water pressure with nothing turned on is 71 psi.

    4. Tankless heater is an older Aguastar gas tankless with 125,000 BTU maximum.

    5. Thermostat set to 120 degrees nominal.

    6. 2.5 gpm flow shower head, standard old style three knob valve system.

    7. 1.0 gpm maximum flow from kitchen fixture.

    8. Normal shower setting (105 degrees) would be about 1/3 cold mixed with 2/3 hot with winter incoming water temperature (42 degrees).

    9. Fixed 3.5 gpm flow restrictor was not removed from tankless heater.



    I did perform a hot water capacity test in the manner that you described.

    1. Hot water in the shower set to full ON with no cold mixed in.

    2. Hot water in the kitchen sink set to full ON with no cold water mixed in.

    3. Ran water to cool down the tankless unit unit until a stable temperature was observed.

    4. Temperature of the hot water in shower and at the kitchen sink went down to 98 degrees and stayed there.

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