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Thread: Misc Residentual Code Questions

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    DIY Senior Member Master Brian's Avatar
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    Default Misc Residentual Code Questions

    As some may know from previous posts, I am needing to re-wire my house. I am planning on taking the Homeowners test, which in my local allows me to rewire my house and pull the permit to do the work.

    I do have some things, I'd like clarified before I get too far into the process. I have been looking through the 2008 NEC and I am trying to do a floorplan layout.

    1) I need two 20amp small appliance circuits, correct? Question is, can those supply other receptacles? i.e. Can these circuits, which will be supplying power to the countertops, supply the other outlets in the kitchen. The ones that are lower down the wall.... According to 210.52 of NEC, it looks as if they can.

    2) It looks like the small appliance circuit can feed the receptacle that powers a gas range. Am I correct? Again...According to 210.52 of NEC, it looks as if they can.

    3) Bathroom. This looks to need to be a 20amp circuit, independent of all others. Correct? What is confusing is are they wanting

    4) What appliances are supposed to be on dedicated circuits? My understanding is the furnace, fridge, sump, washing machine. Any others? What about dishwasher? I ask, because I haven't seen anything yet, but hear things. I've never had a house that had the dishwasher on a dedicated circuit, nor have my furnaces been. In fact, currently my furnace and sump are on the same circuit.

    I'm sure I'll have a few other questions as time goes on....

    Thanks

  2. #2

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    First of all what code does your area go by and does your area / state have modifications to these rules?

    Maybe you go by 2008 NEC, but there is a booklet for your state/area which lists modifications? Might be just a few things listed on a web site for your city/state.

    So ask your local electrical inspector's office which NEC they go by [for where *you* live - city might be different from rural!], and ask if they have amendments to these rules and where you can get a copy of these amendments.

    For example in some areas a sump pump in a garage is required to be on a GFCI. Other areas have modified this rule so that a GFCI is not required.

  3. #3
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Master Brian View Post
    As some may know from previous posts, I am needing to re-wire my house. I am planning on taking the Homeowners test, which in my local allows me to rewire my house and pull the permit to do the work.

    I do have some things, I'd like clarified before I get too far into the process. I have been looking through the 2008 NEC and I am trying to do a floorplan layout.

    1) I need two 20amp small appliance circuits, correct? Question is, can those supply other receptacles? i.e. Can these circuits, which will be supplying power to the countertops, supply the other outlets in the kitchen. The ones that are lower down the wall.... According to 210.52 of NEC, it looks as if they can.
    This is the correct section to be looking at. Read carefully (B)(1)

    Quote Originally Posted by Master Brian View Post
    2) It looks like the small appliance circuit can feed the receptacle that powers a gas range. Am I correct? Again...According to 210.52 of NEC, it looks as if they can.
    Again look at (B)(2) Exception 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Master Brian View Post
    3) Bathroom. This looks to need to be a 20amp circuit, independent of all others. Correct? What is confusing is are they wanting
    This is an incomplete sentence and I can only assume what you are asking so maybe it would be good for you to assume what my answer is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Master Brian View Post
    4) What appliances are supposed to be on dedicated circuits? My understanding is the furnace, fridge, sump, washing machine. Any others? What about dishwasher? I ask, because I haven't seen anything yet, but hear things. I've never had a house that had the dishwasher on a dedicated circuit, nor have my furnaces been. In fact, currently my furnace and sump are on the same circuit.
    See section 210.23(A)(1) and (2)

    Quote Originally Posted by Master Brian View Post
    I'm sure I'll have a few other questions as time goes on....

    Thanks
    Then I would ask that you complete your thought before posting

  4. #4

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    Helpful huh? ^



    Can these circuits, which will be supplying power to the countertops, supply the other outlets in the kitchen.
    Only the refer and gas stove.

    20 amp to the bathroom recep.

    Dedicated circuits to the DW/Disp, built in micro, washer. Don't know about sump pump. Certainly not a bad idea.

    Get a 40 space panel and run as many dedicated circuits as you want. The two kitchen circuits are minimum. In my personal houses I always run several kit ctop circuits and install double duplex receps.
    Last edited by 220/221; 01-28-2009 at 03:12 PM.

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    DIY Senior Member Master Brian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 220/221 View Post
    Helpful huh? ^





    Only the refer and gas stove.

    20 amp to the bathroom recep.

    Dedicated circuits to the DW/Disp, built in micro, washer. Don't know about sump pump. Certainly not a bad idea.

    Get a 40 space panel and run as many dedicated circuits as you want. The two kitchen circuits are minimum. In my personal houses I always run several kit ctop circuits and install double duplex receps.
    So you can run the fridge off the small appliance circuit?

    As for the DW/Disp, would it be ok to run those on a small appliance circuit or not? Looks like you say they should be independent. Does a DW really have that high of a demand? Like I said, they've always been on other circuits everywhere I've lived, but I've never lived in a house newer than the late 60's. Never had an issue either. I do want to be within NEC code, especially when I submit a plan to the inspector.

    I can see that the sump might be nice on an independent circuit, but the problem I see with that is IF that circuit trips, when would you likely find out? My thought, when you get a flood! I know a battery backup alarm would solve that.... Like I think I said, mine is on the same circuit as my furnace. I'm told that is wrong and will consider changing, but it does work and obviously has for some time. That's why I question it....

    As for the bathroom, didn't mean to make that incomplete, got distracted and didn't realize I hadn't finished! woops! The question is, NEC says 20amp independent circuit, with no other receptacles, but later it seems to say their can be other receptacles if in the same bathroom. Is that correct. Don't have the portions of the code in front of me.

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Master Brian View Post
    So you can run the fridge off the small appliance circuit?
    Absolutely! Run the wire from the panel to the fridge outlet first, then onto the kitchen counter. This is because you don't want your fridge to end up on a GFI protected circuit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Master Brian View Post
    As for the DW/Disp, would it be ok to run those on a small appliance circuit or not? Looks like you say they should be independent. Does a DW really have that high of a demand? Like I said, they've always been on other circuits everywhere I've lived, but I've never lived in a house newer than the late 60's. Never had an issue either. I do want to be within NEC code, especially when I submit a plan to the inspector.
    Most dishwashers today have a heating element inside it to increase the water temp during the wash and for drying. 1500 watts is not unusual. I'd run a dedicated 12/2 to the dishwasher. Put the disposal on its own circuit. Some inspectors let you get away with placing it on the d/w circuit, but if your not 100% sure just run the dedicated circuit. Microwaves also require a dedicated circuit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Master Brian View Post
    I can see that the sump might be nice on an independent circuit, but the problem I see with that is IF that circuit trips, when would you likely find out? My thought, when you get a flood! I know a battery backup alarm would solve that.... Like I think I said, mine is on the same circuit as my furnace. I'm told that is wrong and will consider changing, but it does work and obviously has for some time. That's why I question it....
    The furnace should be on its own circuit. So should the sump pump. Just because it works doesn't mean it will meet code. Add a sump pit alarm.

    Quote Originally Posted by Master Brian View Post
    As for the bathroom, didn't mean to make that incomplete, got distracted and didn't realize I hadn't finished! woops! The question is, NEC says 20amp independent circuit, with no other receptacles, but later it seems to say their can be other receptacles if in the same bathroom. Is that correct. Don't have the portions of the code in front of me.
    You can connect all bathroom OUTLETS in the house to one 12/2 circuit. This circuit cannot feed lighting in the bathroom (or anything else anywhere) UNLESS you have a dedicated 12/2 circuit for that particular bathroom - then you can add the bathroom lighting as well. In new construction it is common to put 2-3 bathrooms on one 12/2 circuit. In a remodel you should do whatever method is easiest for you.

    -rick

  7. #7
    Electrician Chris75's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drick View Post

    Microwaves also require a dedicated circuit.
    Code reference?

    Quote Originally Posted by drick View Post
    So should the sump pump. Just because it works doesn't mean it will meet code. Add a sump pit alarm.
    Code reference?

  8. #8
    Extreme DIY Homeowner Scuba_Dave's Avatar
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    I follow code but I also follow common sense:

    The fridge I put on a dedicated circuit. I ran 12-2 in case we ever have a fridge that needs it (doubtful) but its on a 15a circuit

    My sump pump is in the laundry room & is on the laundry circuit
    Same circuit also had a small fridge, 11 cu ft freeze & a dehumidifier
    I ran a separate circuit for the sm fridge & the freezer

    I will have (3) kitchen small appliance circuits, plus a 4th in the sunroom off the kitchen.

    I run a dedicated 20a circuit to each bathroom
    Even on the 2nd floor where the bathroom are back to back
    Wife's hairdryer is 1500 watts - some are more

    My furnace is also on a dedicated circuit
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    DIY Senior Member TedL's Avatar
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    One of the major advantages of DIY electrical is how cheap it is to add a circuit. For $10 or $20, you can have a separate 20 amp for each of the following: the refrig, DW, disposal, microwave, and any other 1000 or 1200 watt small or large appliance that sits ready to use in your kitchen. (For my planning, the small appliance circuits are for the things that get dug out of the cabinet.) And then I'd run four 20 amp/GFI small appliance circuits to supply the kitchen. Lots of duplex receptacles behind the counters make for cheap convenience & safety. Additional 20 amp to the DR for cooking/warming trays.
    Unless your kitchen is far from your service panel, home runs to the panel should be about as easy as daisy chaining receptacles. If far, consider a sub panel for the kitchen.
    As frequently said, codes are minimum. In the kitchen, I find minimum to be a small fraction of desirable for convenience, functionality, and, yes, safety. Few if any other $200-$250 upgrades (for a DIY) will gaive the ROI in convenience.

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    Remodel Contractor GabeS's Avatar
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    The dedicated circuits are not only required because of watt usage. It's also for servicing. If your dishwasher breaks and you need to shut off the breaker to cut the power and it takes you three days to fix it, do you want to shut your fridge down for three days as well?

    Also, how do you quote portions of posts like that?
    Last edited by GabeS; 01-29-2009 at 05:53 AM.
    Gabe

    Don't follow my advice, I only know a thing or two about a thing or two.

  11. #11
    Extreme DIY Homeowner Scuba_Dave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GabeS View Post
    Also, how do you quote portions of posts like that?
    I think it's copy, paste & edit out parts
    That's how I have done it
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    Remodel Contractor GabeS's Avatar
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    So I don't hit the quote button?
    Gabe

    Don't follow my advice, I only know a thing or two about a thing or two.

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    Extreme DIY Homeowner Scuba_Dave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GabeS View Post
    So I don't hit the quote button?
    Yes - you do use the quote button

    But then once the quote is up, copy & paste it for the number of answers you will post. Then edit each quote specific to the question & the answer you will provide

    copied quote from above
    Quote Originally Posted by GabeS View Post
    So I don't hit the quote button?
    Yes

    Quote Originally Posted by GabeS View Post
    So I don't hit the quote button?
    But I usually click it
    DIY Handyman (not 4 hire)
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  14. #14
    Remodel Contractor GabeS's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Scuba_Dave;181688]I follow code but I also follow common sense:

    The fridge I put on a dedicated circuit. I ran 12-2 in case we ever have a fridge that needs it (doubtful) but its on a 15a circuit

    This is just a test.

    [QUOTE=Scuba_Dave;181688]I follow code but I also follow common sense:

    My sump pump is in the laundry room & is on the laundry circuit
    Same circuit also had a small fridge, 11 cu ft freeze & a dehumidifier
    I ran a separate circuit for the sm fridge & the freezer

    This is also just a test.

    [QUOTE=Scuba_Dave;181688]I follow code but I also follow common sense:

    I will have (3) kitchen small appliance circuits, plus a 4th in the sunroom off the kitchen.

    Another test.
    Gabe

    Don't follow my advice, I only know a thing or two about a thing or two.

  15. #15
    Remodel Contractor GabeS's Avatar
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    Do you see what is happenening? It's not putting them in blue boxes?
    Gabe

    Don't follow my advice, I only know a thing or two about a thing or two.

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