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Thread: causes of electrical fires??

  1. #31
    DIY Member PeteD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scuba_Dave View Post
    Not if the lights are not in the same area
    No reason to run 14-3 to an outside light, then to an overhead light, then to another light in another room, then to a light in a bathroom, then to another outside light on the other side of the house
    And not if the runs are 12-2, which is what the "test" referred to
    And yes I have seen that many switches in 1 place, but they used a 4 gang box for more room
    I agree that it probably doesn't make sense from a practical standpoint. This situation would more likely in occur one room. Two lights in a single fixture and a light and a fan in another fixture for example, each controlled independently.

    My comment was not meant to be directly related to the example (which was just a junction box - no switches or internal clamps), but rather to point out the box fill calcs can work for these combo switches and the box is not overly-packed.

    Pete

  2. #32
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Master Brian View Post
    Is this a round box or a square box?

    1) A 4x4x2-1/8 metal box (Round houses 9 conductors) (Square houses 13 conductors). So NO on both counts.

    2) 18. The black and white wires account for 16, the ground wires account for 1. I am also adding 1 for the grounding clamp per 314.15(B)(2) of the NEC dealing with Clamp Fill states internal clamps should account for 1.

    3) 4-11/16 x 2-1/8 square
    First if it is a 4x4 it can't be round now can it?

    Second on the test you will be taking the only correct answer will come from the book not from what we think

  3. #33
    DIY Senior Member Master Brian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwelectric View Post
    First if it is a 4x4 it can't be round now can it?

    Second on the test you will be taking the only correct answer will come from the book not from what we think

    Well, the 2008 NEC stated a 4x4 round/octagone box! So, don't ask me, ask whomever wrote the code!

    2nd, I know it isn't what I think. I just said what I would have done previous to reading code, which would have been correct, even though I didn't know the code. I stated that to show that not everyone whom does DIY stuff is an idiot and not all connections done by a DIY'er are incorrect and out of code. Common sense goes a long way!

    So were my answers correct or not?

  4. #34
    DIY Senior Member Master Brian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwelectric View Post
    First if it is a 4x4 it can't be round now can it?

    Second on the test you will be taking the only correct answer will come from the book not from what we think
    My question here is, if the code doesn't list a 4x4 size, they list is as 4 square or 4 round, am I supposed to guess? A 4" dia octagon/round box would still be 4x4 would it not? I would assume 4x4 means square, but I've also taken enough tests to know you don't assume on a test like this! It turns out to be "in material" in this case as there is obiously more conductors than either box will handle....

    You state you are an instructor, I would think you would know better.....

    Here is a screen shot of the 2008 NEC, please show me where they state 4x4 as being square.
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  5. #35
    Geologist sjsmithjr's Avatar
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    Try to think of this as preparation for dealing with inspectors and the counterman at the supply house city desk.

    The original question stated that there was a "junction box. Metal 4" x 4" x 2-1/8" deep", so the box in question can't be round.

    Square metal boxes provide maximum box volume and would make the best choice for a junction box with multiple conductors. That's not to say you can't use an octagon box as a junction box as long as your fill requirements are minimal.

    I stand prepared to head to the dunces corner if I got any of this wrong, but at least I'll have learned something new.
    Last edited by sjsmithjr; 01-30-2009 at 11:15 AM. Reason: Remembered...
    -Sam Smith
    Licensed Professional Geologist - AL, TN, KY

  6. #36
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Master Brian View Post
    My question here is, if the code doesn't list a 4x4 size, they list is as 4 square or 4 round, am I supposed to guess?
    No I suppose that you should take your own advice you mentioned here;
    Quote Originally Posted by Master Brian View Post
    Common sense goes a long way!
    If something is as long as it is wide or let’s say something was 4x4 then it must be square or at least this is what I was taught in the fifth grade.

    Quote Originally Posted by Master Brian View Post
    So were my answers correct or not?
    Not

    Quote Originally Posted by Master Brian View Post
    My question here is, if the code doesn't list a 4x4 size, they list is as 4 square or 4 round, am I supposed to guess? A 4" dia octagon/round box would still be 4x4 would it not?
    I think that even a fifth grader would know that anything that was the same on two sides would know that it is a square. I hope that you would know the difference between an octagon and a square. If my third grade math has not left me an octagon has eight sides and would need more numbers than just two. It would look something like this

    As for a round box I think it is pretty easy to recognize as it is a circle.

    Quote Originally Posted by Master Brian View Post
    You state you are an instructor, I would think you would know better.....
    Here is a screen shot of the 2008 NEC, please show me where they state 4x4 as being square.
    One of the hardest things that any instructor has to overcome is the ignorance of the student. When a student thinks they already have the answers to questions it is really hard for the instructor to point anything out.
    As to the NEC stating a box as being a 4x4, the members of the code panels feel that anyone that is messing around with electricity should already know a little something about shapes such as something being a 4x4 would be square.

    Now I am not trying to sound mean or ugly but as you said yourself. “a little common sense goes a long way”

  7. #37
    Remodel Contractor GabeS's Avatar
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    4x4 is two dimensional. Doesn't say the height of the box. 4x4x4 would be a cube. 4x4 doesn't apply to circles. Radius and diameter apply to circles.

    A circle can't have a measurement of 4x4. It's impossible because it doesn't have any sides. It could have a 4" diameter. But that doesn't mean 4x4.

    4x4 means length x width.

    Volume is lenght x width x height.

    Pie times radius squared is the area of a circle.
    Two pie radius is the circumference.

    A square is the same on all sides.
    Gabe

    Don't follow my advice, I only know a thing or two about a thing or two.

  8. #38
    DIY Senior Member Master Brian's Avatar
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    I think you need to go back and look at a 4" octagon metal box, they aren't shaped as your picture shows. Well, they are an octagon, but the sides aren't equal as your picture shows. So, I can easily see someone just saying 4x4 box, maybe you in your advance state as an instructor would never do that, but others might....

    I am however glad you finished 5th grade....when you further your education with a college degree and beyond, you'll surely learn not to assume anything!

    Maybe I am wrong, please explain! Afterall you are the teacher, please teach! Was I wrong on what I would have done prior to reading the code? I am certain, I was correct! If not please enlighten me there as well. 4 wires max wouldn't have been overfill on any 4" box that is 2-1/8" deep. Crazy part is my common sense tells me, putting much more than that isn't safe, I didn't need to pass any test to tell me that. In my opinion taking the home owners test is just passing through the hoops....but if that's what it takes then fine.

    Maybe I didn't read the code correct and that really comes from not wanting to waste a bunch of time flipping through online pages to check on the a couple of things.

    One of the hardest things that any instructor has to overcome is the ignorance of the student. When a student thinks they already have the answers to questions it is really hard for the instructor to point anything out.
    I haven't seen you point anything out, you skirt around acting arrogant, that is it! What I have learned in life, is the people whom are the most successful are the ones not whom think they know it all, but the ones that surround themselves with those smarter than they. I've never claimed to know it all, which is why I am here asking questions! I question why you are here, because all you want to do is mock and act like you know it all, when you clearly don't or you woudn't be here. Some are here to learn, others are here because they truly want to be useful, you seem to be here merely to self promote. Have at it!!

    As to the NEC stating a box as being a 4x4, the members of the code panels feel that anyone that is messing around with electricity should already know a little something about shapes such as something being a 4x4 would be square.
    Is that a fact! You probably asked each and every one of them! I actually don't see the NEC stating a box being 4x4. NEC states it as being 4" square or 4" round/octagonal. You and one other person stated 4x4! NEC, was much more clear....they obviously didn't want confusion....

    As for the common sense, I am paying attention to mine and disregarding you from here on out....

  9. #39
    DIY Senior Member Master Brian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GabeS View Post
    4x4 is two dimensional. Doesn't say the height of the box. 4x4x4 would be a cube. 4x4 doesn't apply to circles. Radius and diameter apply to circles.

    A circle can't have a measurement of 4x4. It's impossible because it doesn't have any sides. It could have a 4" diameter. But that doesn't mean 4x4.

    4x4 means length x width.

    Volume is lenght x width x height.

    Pie times radius squared is the area of a circle.
    Two pie radius is the circumference.

    A square is the same on all sides.
    If this is pointed at me, I understand what a square, circle and octagon are. I also realize that people state things that aren't 100% correct, so if there is any question, one should clearify. A simple, it was a square box, would have sufficed! Instead, there is no response and the response from the instructor isn't even a real response, it's heckling! I assume he is an instructor so he can self-promote....

    What amazes me is how threatened some people are by people whom do things themselves. I don't know if they are threatened because they feel food is being taken off their plates or if they are threatened because someone else might be capable of doing on the side, what their life focus is....

  10. #40
    Remodel Contractor GabeS's Avatar
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    It wasn't directed at you. Just at the general discussion of the entire post. I can't believe we are telling each other basic geometry. I doubt that's why people are on this forum.
    Gabe

    Don't follow my advice, I only know a thing or two about a thing or two.

  11. #41
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Master Brian View Post
    I think you need to go back and look at a 4" octagon metal box, they aren't shaped as your picture shows. Well, they are an octagon, but the sides aren't equal as your picture shows. So, I can easily see someone just saying 4x4 box, maybe you in your advance state as an instructor would never do that, but others might....
    And it is the ones that would call an octagon or round box a 4x4 that will never get any understanding of box fill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Master Brian View Post
    I am however glad you finished 5th grade....when you further your education with a college degree and beyond, you'll surely learn not to assume anything!
    Well for what it is worth to you I have a piece of paper with my name on it from North Carolina State University. I don't think I am the one assuming that a 4x4 is a round box now am I?

    Quote Originally Posted by Master Brian View Post
    Maybe I am wrong, please explain! Afterall you are the teacher, please teach! Was I wrong on what I would have done prior to reading the code?
    That is like asking if there will be a blue truck parked in the store parking lot in the morning on the way to work. No one can say if you would have done something right until after you have done it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Master Brian View Post
    I am certain, I was correct! If not please enlighten me there as well. 4 wires max wouldn't have been overfill on any 4" box that is 2-1/8" deep.
    This would depend on what you are calling a wire. If you are talking about four #4 conductors then it would not be compliant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Master Brian View Post
    Crazy part is my common sense tells me, putting much more than that isn't safe, I didn't need to pass any test to tell me that.
    Common sense or not it would not be wrong to install as many as 20 eighteen gauge conductors in that box
    Quote Originally Posted by Master Brian View Post
    In my opinion taking the home owners test is just passing through the hoops....but if that's what it takes then fine.
    To someone who fully understands the dangers involved with electrical installations it makes perfect sense to test someone on their ability before letting them continue to make electrical installation. To someone who does not fully understand the dangers involved with electricity they just can’t understand why someone should be required to take a test before being allowed to make electrical installations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Master Brian View Post
    Maybe I didn't read the code correct and that really comes from not wanting to waste a bunch of time flipping through online pages to check on the a couple of things.
    Try as hard as I could I just couldn’t understand what you were saying here. I would suggest that anyone that is going to undertake making an electrical installation read the NEC and study it in detail

    Quote Originally Posted by Master Brian View Post
    I haven't seen you point anything out, you skirt around acting arrogant, that is it!
    I think you might be a little off base here. You make the comment in your opening post that you have been reading the NEC so every answer I have given you has made reference to that book. I can’t understand why you think that by giving you the code section in question I am not helping you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Master Brian View Post
    What I have learned in life, is the people whom are the most successful are the ones not whom think they know it all, but the ones that surround themselves with those smarter than they.
    Well my friend I can promise you that this is something I do daily. Just yesterday I was in a meeting with the chair person of code panel 8 and the CEO of the NCAEC as well as others. I do make an effort to ensure that any information I give out is the best.

    Quote Originally Posted by Master Brian View Post
    I've never claimed to know it all, which is why I am here asking questions! I question why you are here, because all you want to do is mock and act like you know it all, when you clearly don't or you woudn't be here. Some are here to learn, others are here because they truly want to be useful, you seem to be here merely to self promote. Have at it!!
    Spoke in a truly defensive manner. I get this type of statement all the time when I have pointed out to someone where and why they are wrong. There is nothing wrong with making a mistake except the lack in mental ability to accept the fact and admit it, 4x4 and 4 square is the same. It is you who made this statement;
    Quote Originally Posted by Master Brian View Post
    Is this a round box or a square box?

    1) A 4x4x2-1/8 metal box (Round houses 9 conductors) (Square houses 13 conductors). So NO on both counts.
    Now you can try to turn the tables on me all you want but the facts are there in plain sight for the entire world to see. A 4x4 box can not be round plain and simple.

    Quote Originally Posted by Master Brian View Post
    Is that a fact! You probably asked each and every one of them! I actually don't see the NEC stating a box being 4x4. NEC states it as being 4" square or 4" round/octagonal. You and one other person stated 4x4! NEC, was much more clear....they obviously didn't want confusion....
    If you can’t understand that 4x4 and 4 square is the same then you will not pass that test that someone is going to make you pass so you will look like a pet dog jumping through hoops.

    Quote Originally Posted by Master Brian View Post
    As for the common sense, I am paying attention to mine and disregarding you from here on out....
    Spoke like someone who (notice the use of the word who instead of the misuse of the word whom) truly does not have the ability to learn. So have at it!!
    Last edited by jwelectric; 01-30-2009 at 05:42 PM.

  12. #42
    DIY Senior Member Master Brian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GabeS View Post
    It wasn't directed at you. Just at the general discussion of the entire post. I can't believe we are telling each other basic geometry. I doubt that's why people are on this forum.

    Don't ask me, I really didn't think it was a big deal. I just saw it listed differently in the NEC codebook and thought I should clarify!

    Like I mentioned before, I think some people just like to try to make themselves feel smarter.

  13. #43
    DIY Senior Member Master Brian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwelectric View Post
    Spoke like someone who (notice the use of the word who instead of the misuse of the word whom) truly does not have the ability to learn. So have at it!!
    If you are going to criticize someone's grammer, you might first want to make certain you have it mastered yourself! Actually it's "Spoken"! Think my 3y/o has that one mastered. You messed it up at least twice, along with several other things in your last post alone! I would have let it pass, but you are obviously in need of perfection!

    As for the size of the wire, that was clearly spelled out, we were discussing 12/2. Maybe you better stop your assumptions.....

    As for the part you couldn't comprehend. I didn't want to "waste time" flipping through an online manual one page at a time, when it takes about 30sec per page on a 700+ page manual! IF a printed copy had been in front of me or I could have chosen the page # to go to, I would have done it. Had other things to do at the time.... Sorry that was inconcievable to your far superior brain!

    Sorry, I had to glance back at the car wreck....human nature!

  14. #44
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
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    When doing an electrical installation the most important tool anyone can have is a current copy of the NEC. To just ask someone if this is right or if that is right is not getting the job done correctly.

    The price of a current copy of the NEC is a lot less than having the inspector come back for another inspection.

    But then again maybe some use a butter knife instead of a screwdriver.

  15. #45
    Extreme DIY Homeowner Scuba_Dave's Avatar
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    You can't use a butter knife?
    Can you talk to my wife

    Buying the NEC handbook was one of the best things I ever did
    DIY Handyman (not 4 hire)
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