Opinions needed??? PEX or Copper??

I'm remodeling my basement bath and need to move some supply lines.. I'm pretty good at sweating copper, but looking at the PEX for the new connections. Which do you guys prefer or think is the better choice... It will be installed in a 2x6 wall if that helps.

I'm also interested in this topic. I have a few projects that I'm designing. All of them are in freezing climates (low to mid 20's). I have read that PEX is able to handle freezing temperatures, but not sure how true this is.

My take on this is that not all PEX products are the same in their composition, so do some reading on manufacturing process if you decide on PEX. No skill is used to install PEX, so installation quality might be an issue on my projects. Also since different manufacturers may have different fittings and crimp rings for their products, it may be hard to find replacement parts down the road if something goes wrong and that manufacturer is out of business. It just seems to me that there hasn't been a standard for PEX pipe size (inside/outside diameters), fittings, crimp rings, etc. PEX has not given me enough reasons to switch side.

I have read that PEX is able to handle freezing temperatures, but not sure how true this is.

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PEX MIGHT not burst if the water inside freezes but there is no guarantee that it will survive intact. ANY installation subject to freezing should take the same precautions as with any other piping material.

No skill is used to install PEX...

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Not true. While it MAY be true that anyone can make up a PEX fitting joint the first time without immediate failure there most assuredly IS skill involved in any piping system regardless of the materials and methods used.

Also since different manufacturers may have different fittings and crimp rings for their products,...

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True, and they are not necessarily interchangeable. I think the only system I would use is the Upanor/Wirsbo expansion system.

PEX has not given me enough reasons to switch side.

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Me either. Copper has proven itself over the long haul. Unless you have aggressive water that makes copper a poor choice I would stay with copper.

Furd said:

Not true. While it MAY be true that anyone can make up a PEX fitting joint the first time without immediate failure there most assuredly IS skill involved in any piping system regardless of the materials and methods used.

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Sorry Furd, let me rephrase my comment on "No skill is used to install PEX...". My point is that if I specify PEX in my projects, a general contractor will just hire a cheap subcontractor with little or no skill to install the PEX piping (hence the "No skill is used to install PEX.." comment). It gets install and the piping system passes the test, but there's no way for me to tell how good this system is. Where as if I specify copper, I can say that the installer must have a current welding certificate. This puts some "quality" into the system that I can trust.

I agree that there is skill involved, and I would rather get a skilled installer, but from a designer's stand point, how do I make sure that I get a skilled installer.... like mandating a welding certificate for copper?

Where as if I specify copper, I can say that the installer must have a current welding certificate.

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You sound like me in High School before I got into the trades.
Copper pipe is soldered. In rare cases it may be brazed, but never welded.

Current codes for copper include acid free solder, and lead free solder.
A contractor should be using a licensed plumber for the task, whether it's being done with PEX, or copper.

There are good reasons for both types of pipe.
I like to use copper around my tub and shower valves, but the rest is fine with PEX.
The water supply is typically done with the least experienced worker, the hard stuff like waste and vents by the most experienced worker.
Or to put it another way, when an apprentice has run enough "Water" he is finally trained on Waste and Vents.

My 2 cents..

I had a house fire in 2006, requiring a complete gut and rebuild, including electric, plumbing, walls, flooring, joists, ceilings, etc. I got several quotes on the plumbing, and all quotes were for pex. So when I decided to do it myself, I used pex. I have done a fair amount of copper pipe work. There is no comparison between the two methods. Copper is labor intense, and very expensive for the copper itself. For a 10' length of 1/2" copper, it was $16 retail. That is $160/100'. I paid $25/100' pex retail. The fittings were about $3-5 each including the clamps. The crimp tool and cutter was $100. The labor savings are huge. Running the pex was easy. I had 0 leaks on pex fittings. Try that with copper! For me, pex is the only way to plumb supply lines. Of course, there are some spots that must be copper, such as hot water heaters and boilers and registers.

Terry said:

You sound like me in High School before I got into the trades.
Copper pipe is soldered. In rare cases it may be brazed, but never welded.

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I understand that copper pipe is soldered and brazed. I'm just saying that I ask for a welding certificate from someone that's going to install copper piping. I didn't say to weld copper piping. Doesn't someone with a welding certificate know how to solder and braze.... or am I wrong with that assumption?

Not necessarily

I would look for someone who can solder copper. That may be a welder, but it could also be a librarian.

To be a certified welder has nothing to do with working with copper. Now, a good craftsman is a good craftsman, and MIGHT be as good at one as the other, but that is no guarantee. Brazing and soldering are closer together than either to welding.

Thank for saying that

A good craftsman is careful to pay attention to details, but not too many details. Forgive me for saying this here, but plumbing is not rocket science. Neither is soldering. I can teach the basics of soldering in about 2 minutes. After a couple tries, you can solder. From now on, the quality of your work depends on you taking each act of soldering as a statement about you as a person and your character. That makes you a professional. Someone said once, "it doesn't take much of a man to be a success, just all of him."
Now, about hiring a master plumber: I may be unusual, but after getting some quotes, and seeing what SOME plumbers act like, I decided I would do it myself. I did it well, but probably slower and more inefficient that a pro. But one thing I DO know is, I did the work the absolute best I could. I know every inch of the installation. I did it for a fraction of the quotes I rec'd. And, I am confident I can handle about any plumbing issue that comes up. But I would not hesitate to hire a pro if it made sense at the time. I think I could pick a pro better now.