Paying the plumber question

No not all. But yes the most probable. I pay the mechanic or the plumber, etc. not only for their skill but for their professional knowledge as well. The sharing of professional knowledge is what leads to long term relationships. I have very long term relationships with my mechanic, plumber etc. and I never shop price because the people I deal with offer me an abundance of information upfront and have earned my trust over the years and I have earned their respect as a quality customer. Had my plumber been in the same situation I believe he would have spelled out the various outcomes more clearly. At the very least I believe had nothing been said upfront that at the point the water was not working he would have explained me the situation, and that it is not common, charged me the hourly rate to that point and offered me a flat rate to complete the job.

Cass said:

In all the years you have taken your car to be repaired has the mechanic explained to you all the problems that could possibly occur during the repair...I think not.

Click to expand...

Like Cass mentioned.
Most of the time, you pull the cartridge, and the job is done.
Why would I mention that I'm thinking I may be changing your entire faucet when 95% of the time, I'm not. It makes me look like an idiot when the thing just slips right out.

You don't normally go into it thinking, This could be the big one.
This could be the one that brings down the towers.
No, you go in thinking this is a cartridge replacement.

Some places have hard water, and that can create problems.
What we don't know here, is if there was something coming in from a pipe into the valve body that was causing the cartridge to stick. In that case, destroying the cartridge may have been the only solution.

I like what hj said. The first plumber should be paid for his time.
If you choose a second plumber, why should he be handed the keys, for none of the effort.
The first guy at least washed the car.

But more importantly, it's good to prime the economy with more work. Whatever you are paying that worker, he takes and pays the next person.
At some point, in comes right back to "you".
We are all buying, and selling, and helping each other.
I sometimes ask my customers what they do, knowing that someday, I may be their customer.

Although it doesn' seem murky to me, he needs to be paid for the time spent...I do think he could have been a better communicator. Lots and lots of great tradespeople are not great sales people or great people people.

This kind of misunderstanding could have been avoided if he had said: "Sometimes these things break. If it does, I could he here a while."

I know this because I'm not a people person and sometimes a poor communicator.

max432 said:

This answer goes to my original point. As a professional plumber it is YOUR responsibility to share this type of information with the customer BEFORE you begin repairs. Had this information been offered to the customer even at the job site they could have decided to just put in a whole new unit and not roll the dice on the old one or paid the plumber for the service call and advice and been out a lot less money.

Click to expand...

Can't argue with the above statement.


I've been in the biz long enough to know product reliability issues, and I've been belted by Moens so many times it's not funny.


So...


When I talk over the phone to the customer, I ask how they use their faucet if it is single handle. If they push/pull it's a moen. If they turn from 3 to 11 it's a Delta, if they pull up and turn left to right, it's a Delta, if they only turn one handle and the temp stays the same, it's a Delta.


Can't forget the oddballs; I see a Symmons every once in a great great while, rare though. Good faucet. Kohler and I start laughing out loud about the 2 trip trick, no guarantees.


If it's a Moen, I purposely set the call up to come out because I'm going to charge for my knowledge. When I get there, I explain FULLY to the customer that this faucet has a history of problems, requires special tools and the design is as such where the most important component of the faucets locks itself into the valve, and damage may occur. I then take my finger and poke it hard as **** into their chest and tell them face to face, you need to let me know how much time you want me to invest into this faucet, because this will happen again and again and again unless you take this cartridge out every year and regrease it so it won't bond to the brass body.

It's their choice at this point, I get my "special tool" out required to get the cartridge out, I brace myself so I don't fall back into the tub as it sometimes will happen. Chipping those cartridges out is not fun at all, and the ports into the older ones are rough square cut with unfinished ports which collect debri.

In new construction those valves would clog easy on the finish with the debri that would get in the lines. Had to take the cartridge back out, get the flashlight and fine metal wire and "try" to clear the port. If it was a ball/drip of solder from when the valve was pre-built before being attached to the piping system, GOOD LUCK because you're not going to get it out. You're chances of getting that out is as good as NOT being the father on the Maury Povich show.

I guess I got lucky pulling my Moen shower/tub valve out
I paid $30 + tax for the replacement cartridge
Actually I found the information for pulling the Moen cartridge on this site

Interesting points from all, thank you!!

The reason I elected to not have the valve replaced at that time was because 1) he estimated $500 to replace the valve in addition to the $200, and I was not ready to spend $700 until I fully understood the problem and all my options. I was not convinced that it was the valve, could the blockage been in the shower arm or the pipe between the valve and the shower arm? I did not know. 2) He did not have a new valve with him anyway. He was going to go to another job, then go buy a valve and come back to install it. I got the feeling that many posters think that I was disgruntled that the job was not completed because I elected to stop work. That was not the case. There was a huge expenditure involved and I would have had to had waited till the end of the day or the next day before the valve would have been replaced. I figured I could spend the time investigating and seeing if there were any other solutions or options. Can you blame me for wanting to do that? Just wanted to clarify that point.

While many may not like the Moen positemp valve and cartridge, I am sure there are just as many that do like the Moens over other brands. They are very common, sold almost everywhere and installed by the thousands or millions all over this country. The shower configuration is hot & cold supply lines coming into the valve, controlled by the cartridge and then up to the shower head. My point to this is that as a customer hiring a licensed and experienced professional, the expectation is that the professional is familiar with the product and the system, is familiar with its short-comings, and has dealt with the majority of common "unforseen circumstances" in similar situations. Let's keep in mind that this is a "no water out of shower head" problem. This is just a common shower stall configuration, nothing fancy, as plain as can be. I think it would be safe to assume that it is a common situation encountered often. How much of unforseen problem could arise from this particular situation. An average homeowner has zero to very minimal experience with these situations while an experienced professional, should have much, much more and should be able to resolve the problem. After all, isn't it their experience that professionals are paid for? This is my reasoning and why I posted in the first place.

BTW, I am somewhat surprised that there have been no posts suggesting what could be the cause to this problem. While there have been over 20 posts to this thread mostly in favor of the hired professional, there have been 0 posts to my problem posted in the shower and bathtub thread!! Can any professional or DIYer suggest what they would do to troubleshoot where and what the blockage is and how to remove it? Would replacing the valve guarantee that the problem would be fixed? This cannot be the first time this type of problem has come up?

No koolbean,


It's a long list of many. That guy, another plumber, even myself could spend hours trying to get that situation resolved, but what is going to keep it from happening again?


Do you know? That's why I upsell to another brand. Let them spend a little money, give it a good effort and show them "the way."


I dread a moen tub/shower faucet repair when a customer tells me they've worked on it first. Even if they didn't touch it, said it "hasn't been worked on in years" and I start to cringe. That pretty much means in a hard water area that it's going to take everything to get that cartridge out. Ask me about the 875 series kitchen sink faucets moen makes, or hit me with a board spiked with nails and tell me the luxury of a Monticello series faucets by them.

By all means though, if you like moen and praise it because millions abroad have great success with them, install another one. Just remember that you're $200 in the hole right now with still no working faucet.

No way that would be said with a Delta. Delta made their faucets where the mentally retarded can rebuild them, hell I won that award years ago!

faucet

How many faucet repairs do you start out telling the customer all the possible scenarios which could occur and then tell them a new faucet would prevent them? Especially a tub/shower valve which should never have the problem described so it would not even have been one of the possible problems? You giving plumbers too much credit for having crystal balls which are not defective. There are many jobs that appear innocuous at first, but once you start them the hidden problems start occurring, and once they start you have to keep on regardless of how much more difficult the job is than it first appeared to be. Having him do the diagnostic work and then letting someone else do the actual work, is like having a plumber give you a free estimate telling you how he would do the job, then using that information to do it yourself, or have Joe the handyman do it now that he does not have to figure it out himself.

I don't know the internal workings of the valve or cartridge. To replace mine I sprayed the old one with W-40. I then went & bought the replacement cartridge. It was about 2-3 hours from the time I sprayed until I attempted to pull the old cartridge.
At 1st it didn't move, I used a hammer to lightly tap on it to break any seal. I then used a hammer & scrap 2x to slowly pull the cartridge out.

Before putting the new cartridge in I removed the shower head
I attached a hose to the open valve area & turned the water on to flush out anything that was in the line. I used a flashlight to take a look, cleaned it out some more & flushed again. I then put the new cartridge in & tested - flushing out the shower supply, I put the shower head back on & re-attached the trim & handle

Your Question was specific in that you wanted to know if the money charged was fair. I think if you had asked for suggestions on how to possibly fix the problem you may have had some different answers
But from reading this the general opinion from the Pro's is the valve body needs to be replaced. My water pressure is around 80 psi, if 100 psi did not flush out the line - then you have a pretty bad blockage

When I went to buy a valve for my new 2nd floor shower my plumber recommended Delta, and that is what I bought

max432 said:

This answer goes to my original point. As a professional plumber it is YOUR responsibility to share this type of information with the customer BEFORE you begin repairs. Had this information been offered to the customer even at the job site they could have decided to just put in a whole new unit and not roll the dice on the old one or paid the plumber for the service call and advice and been out a lot less money.

Click to expand...

You know if I came into a home owners house and tell them everything that can go wrong if I do my job, they would label me a fear monger. If I come to your home and power rod any of your drains, there may be such a bad obstruction that the pipe needs to be replaced. Only way I would find this out is when I stick the rod down the drain. Now is it my fault that the pipe is broken and needs repair?

I had customers tell me that they are paying me to unclog the drain, so if its not unclogged they are not paying me. I explain to them they hired me to stick my rod in the drain to attempt to unclog the drain. Since the only way to tell if a drain is broke in such a way is to try to rod it out. If I walked in and told them before I stick my rod in the line, they need to know there is a possibility the pipe is broken and needs to be dug up, they will think I am trying to rip them off instead of cleaning the drain. Honestly I think some of these people think we have a crystal ball or x-ray vision so we can tell them their troubles with out trying to solve the problem the simple way first. Heck if I had x-ray vision I would charge more money to be able to diagnose their troubles with out doing all the dirty work first.

People pay doctors willingly for him to look at you and tell you oh this is wrong, nothing I can really do with out opening you up,, then hands you a bill for his time to figure that out. And do not tell me doctors deserve to get paid since they went to school for all them years. We as plumbers deserve to get paid just as anyone else in this world. Here in Illinois I had to be an apprentice for 5 years and take 4 years of schooling, 5 years if I wanted to get medical gas certified.

I'd like to re-ask the question that came up earlier. Was the shower valve working before he pulled and replaced the cartridge?

SewerRatz said:

People pay doctors willingly for him to look at you and tell you oh this is wrong, nothing I can really do with out opening you up,, then hands you a bill for his time to figure that out. And do not tell me doctors deserve to get paid since they went to school for all them years. We as plumbers deserve to get paid just as anyone else in this world. Here in Illinois I had to be an apprentice for 5 years and take 4 years of schooling, 5 years if I wanted to get medical gas certified.

Click to expand...

Perhaps you or anyone you know has never had a major surgery or treatment for a serious illness. Prior to treatment patients are required to sign a release that states the risks have been explained. In regards to the rodding of a drain I personally would welcome my plumber telling me something like "I do 100's of these a year but on rare occaisions I will encounter a bad pipe that may break and require repairs" Also on larger rodding jobs I thought it was standard procedure to offer to "camera" the pipe before work begins. I understand the customer must pay for the camera but I am sure many do because it paints a more accurate picture. Again it is your's, my doctors, or any other professional that I hire responsibilty to educate and inform me so that I can make the most intelligent decision and avoid complications later. The professionals that follow this rule along with a true desire to earn their customers trust and respect are generally the ones that can charge above market rates and have a steady and consistant income in good or bad times.

Another advantage to doing business in this manner is that over time you weed out the pain in the ass customers that can find fault in everything as if there was a reward for doing so.

I know a lot about doctors here and I ain't ashamed to admit it, I know one thing for sure, they always ask before they do a thing, " do you have any questions?"

That is your chance to ask away before the plumber does a thing. He can come and say, " you got a clog" there's your diagnosis. Now, ask your questions.

But, remember if you take an hour up of the doctors time asking questions you are going to be charged for it. If you don't believe me, check the paperwork, it will be checked ie, extensive visit, etc... different amounts.

So, in all fairness, if you take up an hour of that plumbers time asking questions, he is rightfully, going to charge you for it.

I have had major illness and treatments. Power rodding is not a major illness or repair. When it comes to me digging up a sewer, I do explain to the home owner there may be other problems out there, like the pipe may not be broken in one spot, that there is no way to tell till after I make the first repair.

I mean come on I get a call to replace a cartridge, I have had the stem pull out and I had to extract the other part some times in pieces. I never ran into the shower valve getting clogged. Can it happen to me? You bet! Do you think I told the home owner that the faucet may never work again after I try replacing the cartridge? No I did not. Why cause it never happened to me before and the odd of it is real rare. I do tell people after rebuilding a faucet that if it continues to leak it should be replaced. Reason for that is I had many other brand faucets that kept leaking after I put all new parts in it, a faucet leaking after a rebuild is more common that not ever flowing again.

Pretty soon you are going to tell me I need to warn someone if I park in their driveway it may get a drip of oil, or it may crack due to the weight of my truck... again where does it stop.

You hire a plumber to make a repair, things can go wrong that we do not foresee. So in that case you saying the plumber should not get paid? Just like if you go to a mechanic for brakes he gives you an estimate (btw estimate is just that its an approximate price, it means it can be less or more.) to replace the pads and cut your rotors. As he is working on your car the rotors are bad, he may of told you there is a chance the rotors can not be saved and it would cost so much extra, so he covered that base. But as he putting it all back together the calipers are shot and need replacing which is rare but happens once in a blue moon. Hey they worked when you brought the car in but now that he had to put the new pads in and push the calipers cylinder back in it leaks like a sieve. What do you do tell him to stop and do not pay him for all the other work? Its not his fault things went wrong, he could not known that your calipers where shot till he got into the the job. Just like this plumber ran into he had no idea things where going to go wrong with the faucet. He put in the time and effort, and should get paid.

And just to show that the philosophy of paying the plumber for time spent rings true, I got involved with a job the other day that at most would have been an hour and a half. Unforeseen circumstances, I was there for twice that. I started thinking about this thread as Murphy's law was having its way with me. In the back of my mind I was thinking, "They might just pay me half of what we agreed upon. I would hope they atleast pay the full price." Mind you the original work never truly got completed, an appliance service tech will be needed to complete the work started. But you know what¿ The homeowner paid me TWICE the amount for the original work. He said you made every effort to resolve the problem and stayed later here's what you deserve.

He was your dad right?

I think many of you are confused by my previous posts. I have never suggested that the plumber should not be paid for diagnostic work or his knowledge. I have only suggested that the more disclosure upfront, an additional 5 minutes conversation, that i am willing to pay for will net a more understanding customer in the event of a worse case scenario.

Not sure if you ever heard the saying that "people don't care how much you know, until they know how much you care". To me when there is a quote over the phone of aproximately $200 and a final bill of over $1000 that is a big enough spread that the plumber should have shared his knowledge about the problems with Moen cartridges in detail up front. I completely understand not mentioning the problems if the worse case scenario would only result in a modest $100 - $200 increase over the original price range quoted.

What should I say to someone that I am about to replace the cartridge for...that I have replaced 100s of them and have never had to replace a valve...why would I say that...I am having the following statement printed and will hand one to every customer before starting any work

"no matter what I do or how long I have been doing this work I can not guarantee that anything I do will work because there is always a possibility that you have an unknown unforeseen problem".

Listen, sometimes you have to open a wall to see what's going on right? It's the same thing. Either way, if your troubleshooting got the owner a little closer to solving the problem, then the troubleshooter must be paid for their services.

If you told the owner that you can fix something, but couldn't fix it because you didn't know how, but spent time trying, that's a different story. No money for that.

As a consumer, this is my thought....

Yes, if he spent the time, he should get paid. Unless....

-He gave you a quote, not an estimate, but a firm quote. Such as, this will cost $$$.
-He supplies the part and the part is the fault. You shouldn't have to pay for him to install defective parts, IF he supplies them. My thought, he sold it to you, it's on him. I think at that point the extra time $$ should be between the part manufacturer and the pro.
-He carelessly does the repair work and causes further damage. In this case, sounds like you knew it might break and he told you what the cost of a broken part would cost, sounds like it was in that range, though not completed. That's the question I would have asked....if you said with a broken piece it would cost $$$, then why are you charging me $$$.

Bottom line, we weren't there and we have only your side of the story. Maybe he could have been more forthcoming, maybe you could have inquired more about the "what if's...".