Toilet flange above or level with floor

hj said:

That "code check" book was written by someone using his opinions, it is NOT a plumbing code. There are "milllions" of flanges installed ON TOP of the flooring. The only ones even with the flooring are those in remodels or when the flange was preinstalled. It is NOT against code to put it on top of the floor, although it might go against the writer of the code check book, but I have never consulted him and do not know what his qualifications, if any, are.

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You better buy one and read it hj...the writer quotes codes from both IPC and UPC. I was just really trying to point out yet again an ambiguios item in plumbing. Some say flush with the finished floor, some say on top of the finished floor......I say do what works and doesn't leak.....if you say on top of the finished floor.....I am going with your advice because I can tell from reading your posts you do know what your doing and could fix just about anything that came along....cheers...I'm on my 2nd beer after a day of hard work that incuded some pvc pipe work for venting......

Funny this thread should pop up. I have upgraded two of my toilets in my home. The 1st floor install went as normal. The wax flange with funnel locked the toilet in place where it would not budge. The upstairs install, (with the flange flush with the tile floor) went down fine however did not compress the wax nearly as well and the toilet could easily slide back and forth. Flash forward a month or two now, and I am have residual water coming out the side of the toilet. What I can only assume, is that the wax did not pinch down and over time the force of the water being funneled by the ring made it fall off the toilet and that superior Toto flush has so much water go thru it, it causes the excess water to go around the wax thru the 1/8th gap or whatever it is and end up next to the toilet.

I am off to HD to see if there are any thicker wax rings, or just to grab one without the funnel to stack with the one i have.

dmaceld said:

The Toto Drake is a mediocre toilet???? The flange is an ordinary Nibco or Mueller ABS flange. The seal is a Fernco wax free. All stuff one could expect to work together nicely, but doesn't.

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No!
The Drake has a larger outlet so poorly designed flanges will not allow it to seat properly...

I use PVC/ABS flanges with a stainless steel ring and set them on top of the finished floor. I do not use all plastic flanges!

I have never had any problems with the flange being installed on top of the floor but to double check, I dry fit the toilet without a gasket. This way, you can check if the toilet is rocking because the flange is hitting the toilet horn.

If it is, the toilet flange HAS to be lowered because the addition of any gasket will make it worse and forcing the toilet down will essentially squeeze all the wax out.

I find a bad tile job a much more common problem for toilets rocking than a flange installed on top of the tile. If you keep tightening the bolts trying to eliminate the rocking without using shims, you will either destroy the flange or crack the toilet.

Another problem I have come across in the past is the plastic funnel that comes with some wax rings. If it doesn't sit properly into the flange or around the toilet horn, it can actually prop the toilet up causing it to rock.

I am new DIY here so please go easy. I just redid my second floor bathroom and installed tiles on the floor. I did install 1/4 inch hardibacker cement board over the original wood subfloor and then proceeded to install the tiles (1/4 inch thick) over it. My question now is this: When I removed the toilet, the flange is sitting above the original wood floor. It is still in good condition but now with the hardibacker, the tile and thin set , it now is below the finished tile by about 3/4 inches. What ar my options here before I install a new toilet? If I have to raise the flange, that means I have to cut it because it was glued to the pipe. I might have to call a plumber here as I am worried that I might mess this up. Your suggestions are appreciated. Thanks

A plumber has the tools that will cut the old flange out without messing up the floor. Then he can install a new flange properly. I would urge you not to try this yourself. You might find the cutter, but you might screw the whole thing up and have to call the plumber anyway. If you only a 1/4" or so, extension rings would probably work OK, but I think 3/4" is way too mucho. Also, don't use a wax ring with the plastic funnel. That's a gimmick that causes more problems than it could possible solve.

If there ever is a next time, the toilet flange lip is supposed to sit on top of the finished floor. Now that your new floor is in, that may be impossible without a lot of extra work. To raise it, it may be easy enough to do yourself if you have access from below. If cut from above, you have to have enough depth to either install a coupler, or a tool to bore out the old pipe from the fitting below (a RamBit is one brand). Depends on your exact configuration. Whether you feel up to it or not, only you know for sure.

Now, a waxless seal, Fernco and Fluidmaster both make some that might work for you...not the best, but should work.

If you ever had a leak, having it that low, it could leak into the floor for a long time before you knew it. On top of the floor, you'd likely notice the dampness. Now, a toilet shouldn't leak! But, then again, people buy insurance all the time just in case.

keyonman said:

I am new DIY here so please go easy. I just redid my second floor bathroom and installed tiles on the floor. I did install 1/4 inch hardibacker cement board over the original wood subfloor and then proceeded to install the tiles (1/4 inch thick) over it. My question now is this: When I removed the toilet, the flange is sitting above the original wood floor. It is still in good condition but now with the hardibacker, the tile and thin set , it now is below the finished tile by about 3/4 inches. What ar my options here before I install a new toilet? If I have to raise the flange, that means I have to cut it because it was glued to the pipe. I might have to call a plumber here as I am worried that I might mess this up. Your suggestions are appreciated. Thanks

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Get two 1/2 inch flange extenders. Caulk between original flange and extender #1, and between the two extenders.. That should leave you 1/4" above the finished floor, just right.
http://oatey.com/Plumber/Shared/ProductGroupDetail/107/Closet+Flange+Spacer.html

Thanks for all your replies. I will check the Closet Flange Spacer and the waxless seal. If there are anymore suggestions, please keep them coming. I will not install the toilet for another week as I am still finishing the rest of the bathroom.

Before I installed the tiles, I did try to see if I could remove the old flange. I found out that it was glued to the pipe. I knew then that I would have to call a plumber then or after I installed the tiles. If I had called the plumber before I installed the tiles, would he have done anything different than if I had called him now with the tiles installed. Of course I am assuming that he will cut the pipe and extend the flange to the finished floor.

BTW, are all original flange installations always flued to the pipe? I was just wondering because when a "professional tiler" installed tiles ( after removing the old linoleum) on my first floor bathroom I am pretty sure that it raised the finished floor. I am almost sure he did not replace the original flange when he installed the new toilet. I am just wondering now if there is a leak below the ff that I might not be noticing here.

Thanks again.

keyonman said:

BTW, are all original flange installations always flued to the pipe?

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Plastic? Yes, unless the original installer forgot to do so.

keyonman said:

I was just wondering because when a "professional tiler" installed tiles ( after removing the old linoleum) on my first floor bathroom I am pretty sure that it raised the finished floor. I am almost sure he did not replace the original flange when he installed the new toilet. I am just wondering now if there is a leak below the ff that I might not be noticing here.Thanks again.

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There are flange extenders. There are extra thick or doubled wax rings that will fill a big gap. Both approaches leave orig. flange in place. Reliability of seal varies.

I was at Home Depot to check the closet flange spacer mentioned above and also the waxless seal recommended above. I did come across a Fluidmaster Wax Extender Kit. Basically, it is an extra thick reinforced wax bowl gasket. It did say that it is recommended if floor flange is too low ( 1/4" to 1" below finished floor surface). Since mine is about 3/4" below ff, do you guys think this will work better than the spacer or the waxless seal? Thanks again for any additional info here.

Before reading this thread I planned to glue down a new pvc flange to fit on top of the tile we just laid. It is about 1/2" thick. Will that be enough clearance for a new toilet (we don't have it yet, but are looking at a Toto Vespin, if it matters), or should I chip away some of the tile and set the flange closer to floor level?

If you use a flange (could be pvc) with a SS ring on it, that would certainly fit any toilet and be stronger. An all pvc one should allow the toilet to fit, but having pvc slots to anchor the toilet isn't all that great of an idea...swap the flange for one with a SS ring (not the blue, painted steel more easily found) and be sure it will both work and not break. PVC gets brittle when it gets older, so the metal is better.

If the top of the flange is level with the finished floor will a standard size wax ring be good enough or should a thicker one be used? Is it possible that the thicker one will have too much wax and cause problems or can you not really have too much wax.

Depends on the toilet. Measure how deep the well is on the toilet, then compare it to the thickness of the wax ring. If it will compress at least say 1/4" or so, then it should make a decent seal. If you have too much wax, it can clog things up, but the horn of the toilet normally prevents that if you get it aligned well.

This topic will never be settled.
Never ending question:
bottom of the flange should have been in full contact with the finished floor
or the top of the flange should be on same plane as finished floor like diagram 2 below??

I'm hoping you guys can help me out. I'm finishing a bathroom remodel I did myself, tile, with a plastic flange on top of the finished floor with 3" ABS, and a Toto toilet. I intended to use a waxless seal (the blue one). However, using the waxless seal doesn't allow the toilet to sit flush. I chose the plastic flange because it looked beefy and every toilet install I've ever done (3 lol) the metal flange was warped or deteriorating.

Research has shown me that a standard wax ring without horn should work. The only one I can find in my area is an everbuilt 7510. Everyone else carries a reinforced wax seal or a wax seal with the horn.

Is that the correct wax seal for my application?

I just wanted to give an update and say that a standard wax ring without reinforcement and no horn did the trick. Toilet installed and solid!