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Thread: Finally! The differences between the 528 and the 528T !

  1. #1
    DIY Member lee_leses's Avatar
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    Default Finally! The differences between the 528 and the 528T !

    Replace the "cap" part of the fill valve.

    I had a detailed talk with technical support at Lavelle / Korky today because i'm still having trouble with the 528T fill valve in this Ultramax. Although it is barely audible, the valve seems to shut off 1/2" below the overflow tube, but then over about 20 minutes the water level climbs the 1/2" to the top of the overflow. You can see in the tank the water line has been rising up to the top of the overflow for a while.

    I replaced the cap with a new one, but the slow leak continues. So I called Korky for a question and answer session. I found out a lot and wanted to share it.

    The standard "quiet fill" 528 available at Lowes is NOT the proper fill valve for the Toto toilet! If you use it, the fill ratio between the tank and the bowl is not correct, and will result in low bowl fill levels.

    The part of the valve that is different in the 528T, if I understand, is something in the main black body that screws to the bottom of the tank. The special part is NOT any of the parts that the red part of the valve seats to or the black filter stack that has the filter in it that pulls out. The cap is the same for both the 528 and the 528T, as stated on the package the cap comes in.

    I then asked why the 528T is so much more expensive than the standard 528. I was told it's because the modifications to the 528T are done by HAND at the factory resulting in much greater labor costs. Per the rep, the part that is modified is called a "flow restricter."

    I asked if Korky / Lavelle valves are used in brand new Toto toilets, and I was told yes, that Korky makes some, but not all of the fill valves that Toto either did use, or does use. I'm not sure if Toto is still using Korky parts or not, but they were. I asked if Korky plans to continue to make the 528T and the rep said as far as she knows, yes.

    Lastly, the rep told me that there is a black rubber part in the float assembly that I should try to pry out and turn over to use the other side of it. If that doesn't stop the slow leak then I am to try replacing the entire assembly or at least the float part from a new valve. She said the float part is the same and I could use a float from a standard 528 from Lowes which is what I will try next.

    It's SO much easier having this information available 24/7 rather than having to catch the company during the day when they're open. I hope this helps someone!

    Lastly, the cheapest price by far that I found online for the 528T was at Ace Hardware Outlet for $16.09 + shipping.

    http://www.acehardwareoutlet.com/(4y...x?SKU=4284162&
    Last edited by Terry; 01-09-2009 at 09:03 AM.

  2. #2
    Plumber jimbo's Avatar
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    This is interesting. I wonder if the problem is that the "regular" 528 is for non-1.6 toilets? It seems like if the toilet flushes 1.6 gallons, then it needs to refill 1.6 gallons, no matter what brand. Possibly the Toto toilet bowls hold more water ( bigger spot) and hence take longer to refill. Makes me wonder if they are really using MORE than 1.6 gallons per flush!

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    DIY Senior Member CarlH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimbo View Post
    Makes me wonder if they are really using MORE than 1.6 gallons per flush!
    I doubt that they use more than 1.6GPF. I think I did see in some testing that they indicated how much the various toilets actually used per flush. It may have been the MaP testing. They probably make up for the difference by dropping less from the tank when flushed. If I rember correctly, the pressure assist toilets may have used slightly more at 1.7GPF. I don't remember if they indicated what the water pressure was.

    As for the Korky fill valves, I think that this higher manufacturing cost may be the reason why Toto went with the WDI fill valves. I looked at the WDI web site and some of the fill valves have different flow restrictors available to adjust the amount of water for the bowl fill.

  4. #4
    DIY Member lee_leses's Avatar
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    Carl, thats interesting.

    Is WDI the "Vortech" fill valve Toto is using now, the one that supposedly had all the full shut off problems? I found WDI's website and I see what you mean about adjustable refill rates. There's also an optional flow restrictor of some kind, is that to compensate for high water pressures? Wow this is complicated! LOL Which of WDI's fill valves is Toto using, or do they use several different ones?

    As for the 528 valves, I'm trying to figure out too why the "universal" valve works in most toilets except the Toto. I'm wondering if it has something to do with the way the Toto 3" flush valve empties the tank so much quicker that the refill tube runs for a shorter time (because it takes less time for the tank to empty and fill again maybe?) to fill the bowl and therefore has to run faster to fill the bowl before it shuts off. Also, I think the "spot" might be bigger than many toilets, I think I heard that about Toto and you can see it too maybe?
    Last edited by lee_leses; 01-07-2009 at 03:22 AM.

  5. #5
    DIY Senior Member Probedude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimbo View Post
    Possibly the Toto toilet bowls hold more water ( bigger spot) and hence take longer to refill.
    To me it seems that my EcoDrake just empties more completely, so there's more water to replace vs the old toilet where the water would backwash into the bowl once the siphon is broken.

    Regarding " hand modified" to make a 528 into a 528t, I'm guessing it's just reaming out an orifice bigger or replacing a pressure compensating rubber restrictor with a different sized one.

    Lee, the center tube sliding mechanism of your Korky could be leaking too. The stem telescopes up and down in something and that seal there could have a pinhole or tear in it.

    Lastly, have you checked your water pressure?

  6. #6
    DIY Member lee_leses's Avatar
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    Thank you very much Probed for your thoughts!

    Since at this point I MUST know, I ordered both a 528 and a 528T to take apart and inspect. LOL

    Since I didn't touch the fill valve for 6-7 years, I am wondering if when I touched it to work on it I made a small crack in the tube body or disturbed a now brittle seal. That is on my list to check but i'm going to try the less invasive things first before I try replacing the entire valve.

    Lastly, forgive my ignorance, but are you thinking pressure that is too high as opposed to too low? I assume only too high could be a problem? How do you check that anyway?

    Also, I figured out that ever since new my Toto only flushes right if you hold the flush lever down until the tank empties completely. How do adjustable flappers work? Would an adjustable flapper of some kind keep the flapper open until the tank drained completely, or is there some kind of adjustment for the "stock" flapper that I don't know about?

    Replace the "cap" part of the fill valve.
    Last edited by Terry; 01-09-2009 at 09:03 AM.

  7. #7
    DIY Senior Member CarlH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_leses View Post
    Is WDI the "Vortech" fill valve Toto is using now, the one that supposedly had all the full shut off problems? I found WDI's website and I see what you mean about adjustable refill rates. There's also an optional flow restrictor of some kind, is that to compensate for high water pressures? Wow this is complicated! LOL Which of WDI's fill valves is Toto using, or do they use several different ones?
    I did not see a fill valve on the WDI web site that was an exact match to the one used by Toto. The B3800 looks close except for the cap and the shape of the float. The B3900 looks close too but the position of the adjusting screw is different and there looks like there is an additional lever or linkage involved with the float.

  8. #8
    DIY Member lee_leses's Avatar
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    Hmmmm.

    I was also wondering why they need so many different fill valves to get the job done!

    Lee

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    Retired Defense Industry Engineer jadnashua's Avatar
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    Before water conservation was mandated, it didn't matter much...most filled the bowl maybe twice before the tank was full and it shut off - the valve is in the tank, not the bowl. Now, with varying designs, some have a big water spot and require more water for the bowl verses the tank, and vice-versa. To get both the tank and bowl to fill at the same time would vary by the specific implementation. THus, the valves must be tailored to the application or you will end up using more water than you should or the bowl won't be refilled by the time the tank is and performance would suffer.
    Jim DeBruycker
    Important note - I'm not a pro
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer; Schluter 2.5-day Workshop Completed 2013, 2014

  10. #10
    DIY Member lee_leses's Avatar
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    Thank you. That makes a lot of sense.

    I must say, I wish I was in New England right now, maybe on one of the islands there. Certainly not in PA like I am... LOL

  11. #11
    Master Plumber Redwood's Avatar
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    I thought I said that in one line in the last thread...

    http://www.terrylove.com/forums/show...3&postcount=38

  12. #12
    DIY Member lee_leses's Avatar
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    Finally!

    The valve stem on the left is the universal 528.

    The valve stem on the right is the 528T. As you can see there is a blue flow restricter. As far as I figure, it either slows the water flow into the tank, or forces more water into the refill tubing, i'm unsure which. But there's the main difference. There's also some minor differences in the part that contains the float. The holes that allow water in and out of the float chamber are a little different.

    In the other pic, it shows the parts that bring the water up from the supply line to the valve. There is an "O" ring and the smaller tube in the picture slides into the larger tube. The white piece, the strainer, slides into the smaller tube.

    If the valve still leaks after I replace the float, then I think the "O" ring is worn and has a slow leak. Then the whole valve will have to be R & R'ed.

    That's assuming the "O" ring is there to provide a water tight seal and not just to make the two tubes glide over each other smoothly, i'm still not sure about that if the "O" ring has to be right to keep the valve from having a slow leak into the tank - or not.

    http://home.earthlink.net/~lee_leses/528
    Last edited by lee_leses; 01-10-2009 at 12:33 AM.

  13. #13
    Moderator & Master Plumber hj's Avatar
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    Default flow

    Kohler has been using a "flow restrictor" in their Fluidmaster 400A fill valves for years, and the Fluidmaster "Pro" series also has it. The restrictor is also the reason Kohler toilets eventually take forever to refill until a rod is pushed down the fill valve to remove it. And it would take all of 5 seconds to place it in the fill valve's inlet and shove it up into place. Sort of like a hemorhoid treatment.

  14. #14
    DIY Senior Member Probedude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_leses View Post
    That's assuming the "O" ring is there to provide a water tight seal and not just to make the two tubes glide over each other smoothly, i'm still not sure about that if the "O" ring has to be right to keep the valve from having a slow leak into the tank - or not.

    http://home.earthlink.net/~lee_leses/528
    The o-ring is to make a water tight seal since the water supply is fed through this tube.

  15. #15
    Forum Admin, Expert Plumber Terry's Avatar
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    Jamie can talk a housewife through the replacement of the cap over the phone in about a minute.

    We don't recommend replacing the fill valve, only the quick and easy cap replacement.

    www.terrylove.com/korky

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