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Thread: Ejector Pump Box with Air Admittance Valve (LONG)

  1. #16
    Moderator & Master Plumber hj's Avatar
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    Default tank

    quote; In my locality, no inspection is required for replacement of existing plumbing. Anyway, the original rube-goldberg sink pump would never pass code, so why should I call an inspector to look at something that's been wrong for 40 years? In this case, my new system can't be any worse then what I had

    Does the term "rationalization" ring any bells? You are not "replacing", you are installing a new system if you do it correctly, and that MUST be inspected. Just because the old one was cobbled up covertly, does not mean yours should be. He ALSO thought that there was no need for an inspection because his system would work. Reading the blurb from the Studor company, it seems that their vents and minivents will do everything except milk cows and take the kids to soccer practice. None of the drawings show THEIR OWN requirement for at least one atmosperic vent at the high point of the system. There are several problems with their drawing of an ejector basin. IT will work okay, when there are no drainage problems, but then almost anything would then. But when problems do occur, and they will some day, everything will go to pot and at the very least you will have a basement flooded with sewage, and a pump running to make sure it gets well distributed.
    Last edited by hj; 01-06-2009 at 06:08 AM.

  2. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by ak199 View Post
    Hi all. Newbie here. I just bought a home with a basement utility sink below the sewer line. The original owner rigged up a rube-goldberg contraption, with a pump mounted to the bottom of a sink, and a float switch mounted IN THE SINK. It was disgusting, with a constant 1-2" of standing, dirty water in the sink at any given time. No vent, obviously.

    So, I hired a plumber to come out to fix the problem and he suggested a zoeller pump in the box with a sure-vent. Going to the roof would be a major expense.

    Anyway, the plumber cancelled on me, so I went and bought the supplies myself. First thing I see in the pump manual is that the pump can't be used with an AAV. I searched the forum here and the internet, and the definitive consensus is that a pump in the box won't work with an AAV.


    -A


    How about using one of these. It connects direct to the sink drain tailpiece. It does not need a trap. It will not work with an AAV, but no vent connection is required to main vent stack anyhow. Discharge connects to main stack via a backflow prevention device.


    http://www.accentshopping.com/produc...t_/P_ID/150049

  3. #18

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    According to their manual, you do need at least one atmospheric vent in the line (which I do have). But I object to the notion that a design is "wrong" if it doesn't meet "local code". Under the IRC Code, an AAV with a sewage ejector is 100% acceptable, and that is where my installation and the previous owners rube-goldberg thing differs. If a design is engineered properly, then it's engineered properly. Whether or not the design meets the current building inspectors approval in one town vs another is a matter of personal discretion that does not interest me. What interests me is whether the IRC code permits this and if the design theory behind it is sound. So far, I have found no evidence to support that it does not.

  4. #19
    Master Plumber nhmaster's Avatar
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    Why not gove the folks at Studor a call and ask them. Obviously asking experianced plumbers from all over the country is not yielding the answers that you are looking for and I'm sure the Studor folks will be more than happy to make you feel good about HACK PLUMBING.

    Redwood, I swear to god one of these days my helmet is just not going to be enough defense against the same old crap over and over and over and over and then BOOOM, there go my brains all over the damn place. I gotta get Out of the business. Damn BP 216 over 178

  5. #20
    Master Plumber Redwood's Avatar
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    A few things come to mind...


  6. #21
    Plumber Cass's Avatar
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    ak199...you came and asked about a problem you are having...you have had several plumbers from around the country give you the correct answer...you can now take the info and do the job wrong or right,...your option, but if you choose to do it wrong then why would you bother coming here and waisting our time and yours you should have just done it wrong and continued to have something that is going to cause you, or the next person that buys the home, problems that will pale in comparison to what you have now...

  7. #22
    Moderator & Master Plumber hj's Avatar
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    Default basin

    How many times and how many ways do we have to tell you that a sanitary system into a sealed basin is a "closed" system. It is full of air, and if you try to add a cup of water to it, then a cup of air has to be elimnated somehow. Otherwise the cup of water will not drain, (forget about air being compressible and thus letting the water in). An AAV is like a "roach motel", it lets air in but does not let it out. Therefore, without an atmospheric vent to let air out, the drainage of the system will either not happen, or will be severly compromised. All the "workarounds" will work when things are working properly, but have SEVERE liabilities when the inevitable problems do occur. If you are determined to do it your way, and are just looking for affirmation, then go ahead, because there is no way to stop you. And it does not affect us in the slightest.

  8. #23
    DIY Senior Member Master Brian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hj View Post
    How many times and how many ways do we have to tell you that a sanitary system into a sealed basin is a "closed" system. It is full of air, and if you try to add a cup of water to it, then a cup of air has to be elimnated somehow. Otherwise the cup of water will not drain, (forget about air being compressible and thus letting the water in). An AAV is like a "roach motel", it lets air in but does not let it out. Therefore, without an atmospheric vent to let air out, the drainage of the system will either not happen, or will be severly compromised. All the "workarounds" will work when things are working properly, but have SEVERE liabilities when the inevitable problems do occur. If you are determined to do it your way, and are just looking for affirmation, then go ahead, because there is no way to stop you. And it does not affect us in the slightest.

    HJ, you clearified the problem to me. Thanks! I was curious about this thread, because I am installing my own ejector pit and all that is left is the vent out the roof. Even though I am planning on running my vent out the roof, I was intrigued by this guys AAV "solution".

  9. #24

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    I just want to make one thing clear, I came here to get an explanation of an engineering design devised by STUDOR (not me!) for an ejector pit pump.

    The first "experienced plumber" to reply didn't even bother to look at the design, and from what HJ is saying, neither did he. Obviously, none of you are interested in understanding something new to you, so you just dismiss it as a "hack", or that it won't "pass code", when there is ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE THAT IT WILL NOT WORK, OR THAT IT WILL NOT PASS CODE.

    This is how the design actually works (for those of you who care):

    (1) AIR COMES IN through the ONE WAY AAV valve into the sealed pump box.
    (2) AIR EXITS the sealed pump box via the wet vent loop in the discharge line, which eventually connects to the main stack.

    For everyone's information, STUDOR'S EJECTOR PUMP AAV DESIGN is working great in my laundry. The sink drains fast as hell and there are no smells or "weird drainage" going on.

    I am sure the first AAV designs back in the 70's were met with the same closed-minded, dismissive and arrogant attitude's you all seem to be expressing now. Innovation happens and things change. Get over it. For those of you who didn't give me attitude for trying to understand something new, thanks for reading.

    PS: Here is another thread on a board regarding Studors ejector pump AAV design, how it works, and how it is ACCEPTABLE under IRC Code:
    http://www.selfhelpforums.com/showth...8370#post48370

    Try learning something new... it's free.

    -A
    Last edited by ak199; 01-07-2009 at 01:39 PM.

  10. #25
    Master Plumber Dunbar Plumbing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ak199 View Post
    http://www.selfhelpforums.com/showth...8370#post48370

    Try learning something new... it's free.

    -A


    CRAP!


    I''m even the moderator of that forum, and the plumbing/water quality forums!


    Tell them I'm coming over there and get my head back into that site.


    Back to work! Thanks for showing me the error of my ways...
    Read what the end of this sentence means.

  11. #26
    Master Plumber nhmaster's Avatar
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    I know, I know, it's accepted by ....... Yadda Yadda. Throw enough money at some idiot and you can get just about anything accepted these days. So that aside, let's stop bitchin and take a look at the schematic from Studor. Basically it's a loop vent running back into the horizontal waste with the admittance valve on the riser. Since the pump will be pushing a volume of air in front of the poo when it operates, this column of air will be pushed partly ahead of the poo, down the waste pipe and part of the air will be returned to the tank. At this cycle the AAV is doing absolutly nothing since it only lets air in, not out. So what happens during the off cycle when waste is filling the tank? Essentially the loop vent is allowing the pressure built up in the tank to be vented down the waste line. All of which could be accomplished without adding the AAV which really serves no purpose at all. I have actually seen quite a few ejector pumps piped that way (that is without the aav) and they worked fine.

  12. #27
    Master Plumber Redwood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hj View Post
    Therefore, without an atmospheric vent to let air out, the drainage of the system will either not happen, or will be severly compromised. All the "workarounds" will work when things are working properly, but have SEVERE liabilities when the inevitable problems do occur.
    Listen up Poindexter...

    I believe this covers what you are talking about doing!

    Like we all have said quit talking about it and just go ahead and do it!
    We don't care if your plumbing works or, not!
    We have led you to the waters of knowledge and you refuse to drink!
    Keep on being thirsty...
    We have drank our fill and now we will lead others to the waters of knowledge so that they may quench their thirst...
    I believe others may be wiser!


  13. #28
    Illinois Licensed Plumber SewerRatz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ak199 View Post
    I just want to make one thing clear, I came here to get an explanation of an engineering design devised by STUDOR (not me!) for an ejector pit pump.

    The first "experienced plumber" to reply didn't even bother to look at the design, and from what HJ is saying, neither did he. Obviously, none of you are interested in understanding something new to you, so you just dismiss it as a "hack", or that it won't "pass code", when there is ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE THAT IT WILL NOT WORK, OR THAT IT WILL NOT PASS CODE.

    This is how the design actually works (for those of you who care):

    (1) AIR COMES IN through the ONE WAY AAV valve into the sealed pump box.
    (2) AIR EXITS the sealed pump box via the wet vent loop in the discharge line, which eventually connects to the main stack.

    For everyone's information, STUDOR'S EJECTOR PUMP AAV DESIGN is working great in my laundry. The sink drains fast as hell and there are no smells or "weird drainage" going on.

    I am sure the first AAV designs back in the 70's were met with the same closed-minded, dismissive and arrogant attitude's you all seem to be expressing now. Innovation happens and things change. Get over it. For those of you who didn't give me attitude for trying to understand something new, thanks for reading.

    PS: Here is another thread on a board regarding Studors ejector pump AAV design, how it works, and how it is ACCEPTABLE under IRC Code:
    http://www.selfhelpforums.com/showth...8370#post48370

    Try learning something new... it's free.

    -A
    Illinois does not allow AAV,s mechanical vents or any other device you can think of. They can and will fail. Here is two parts in the Illinois code that will show you they are not allowed at all in the state of Illinois. Colored Bold is added by me.

    Section 890.1480 Types of Fixture Trap Vents



    a) Trap Vent. No trap vent shall be installed within two pipe diameters of the trap weir. (See Appendix K: Illustration N.)



    b) Common Vent. A common vent, installed vertically, may be used for two fixture traps when both traps connect with a vertical waste at the same level. (See Appendix K: Illustration O.)



    c) Vertical Wet Vent. A vertical wet vent may be used for two fixtures set on the same floor level, but connecting at different levels in the stack, provided the vertical drain is one (1) pipe diameter larger than the upper fixture drain and that both drains conform to Appendix A: Table I. (See Appendix K: Illustrations P and Q.)



    d) Mechanical Vents. Mechanical devices shall not be installed in lieu of vent piping.


    Section 890.1420 Stack Vents, Vent Stacks, Main Vents



    a) Design. A properly designed and installed venting system, in conjunction with the soil or waste system, is essential to protect trap seals and prevent siphonage, aspiration, or back pressure. The venting system shall be designed and installed to permit the admission or emission of air so that under normal and intended use the seal of any fixture trap shall never be subjected to a pneumatic pressure differential of more than a one (1) inch water column. If a trap seal is subject to loss by evaporation, means shall be provided to prevent loss of the trap seal. (See Section 890.410(f).)



    b) Installation. A stack vent, vent stack or a main vent shall be installed with a soil or waste stack whenever back vents, relief vents, or other branch vents are required. (See Appendix K: Illustration A.)



    c) Terminal. Vents shall terminate independently above the roof to the outside atmosphere, or shall be connected to another vent at least six (6) inches above the flood-level rim of the highest fixture. (See Appendix K: Illustration B.)



    d) Main Stack. Each building in which plumbing is installed shall have at least one main vent stack no smaller than three (3) inches for each building drain installed. (See Appendix A: Table K, and Appendix K: Illustration C.)



    e) Building Sub-drain Sump Vent Sizes. Building sub-drain sump vents shall be sized in accordance with Appendix A: Table K.

    Go to Studer's web site they will tell you which state allows their AAV's Lots of them have special circumstances that need to be met before you use one. I have seen many of these AAV's installed illegally (just because the hardware store sells it does not make it legal) and I seen many of the cause problems with trap seals being broken due to positive pressure in the system, also seen a few that got stuck in the shut position so it never admitted air like it was designed to do, and people thought they had a clogged drain till I removed the AAV.

    These mechanical vents are a handy mans solution to things. If you want to protect the health of your family and your community do it right or call a plumber to do it right.

  14. #29

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    These mechanical vents are a handy mans solution to things. If you want to protect the health of your family and your community do it right or call a plumber to do it right.
    It is "Right". Maybe you don't agree with it, but the IRC allows AAV's and so does 45 other states in the nation. Sorry you live in the minority where it's considered "wrong". I don't live in Illinois.

  15. #30
    Plunger/TurdPuncher kingsotall's Avatar
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    Ultimately comes down to jurisdiction having authority. If they say,"Ain't no good" then you don't have the convenience of rattling off a message in essence that says "Na na na na booboo, like what I can do." But then again we're talking legitimite plumbing in the real world that gets inspected.

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